Which Groupset?

Because a lot of people fit one anyway?

belt'n'braces.

Velonews say shifting is now better (front and rear) than DA 7900.

And Cyclingnews say...

front: "It's still not quite on par with Shimano Dura-Ace".
rear: "still not quite as slick or smooth as Shimano"

but also

"if anything, Red now seems poised to give Campagnolo's mechanical front shifting a run for its money"

brakes look farkin shite

I agree. The old ones 'looked' far better.

And Cyclingnews say...

front: "It's still not quite on par with Shimano Dura-Ace".
rear: "still not quite as slick or smooth as Shimano"

but also

"if anything, Red now seems poised to give Campagnolo's mechanical front shifting a run for its money"

Contradiction-O-rama then, Campag front shifting (mech) is better than Shimano (mech), or so I understood (my own comparison is based on Ultegra vs Chorus).

This is all received wisdom and conjecture though really, wonder when we will be able to buy the new Red and find out?

DA is best

Fin.

I've understood most pro teams use Red. Why is this? SRAM spending millions on marketing?

EDIT: Nothing to do with performance, but Jesus H. Motherfucker Ultegra and Dura-Ace cranks look like shit.

http://www.fudgescyclestore.com/index.php?p=11433

£2k
fuck.

all those tests of the new RED seam to be saying that the current REd is shite.

I've understood most pro teams use Red. Why is this? SRAM spending millions on marketing?

You understood wrong.

all those tests of the new RED seam to be saying that the current REd is shite.

It is. At least when compared to the other top-end choices.

That's just not true though is it?

Rear shifting is very good- that's on a par with the other two.

Front shifting was sub-par, but that has been addressed now.

Different generations, but I find my 2011 Force rear shift to be much better than my previous Ultegra/DA.

My 2011 Apex is better than my old Ultegra/DA, come to that.

'Current' Red is shite. New Red is less shite. Glad we agree.

Not important to you, but new Red is over half a kilo lighter than DA.

That's a fair amount of weight.

You're right, it's not important to me. I need stuff to work properly all the time, under pressure, with a large lump of meat riding a bike trying to break everything.

I'll gladly change my opinion on the new Red when I've used it.. if it's better.

Doesn't sound like you are willing to give it any sort of chance, so how are you ever going to know if it is better/worse/the same?

When I ride the new one I will know, obviously.

My 2011 Apex is better than my old Ultegra/DA, come to that.

Not specifically aimed at you, but in general how much of this is down to the parts, and how much is down to set-up/installation?

Not sure- I installed/set up both the Ultegra/DA, and the Apex/Apex+Force/Force, if that helps at all.

Ultegra/DA was with Shimano cables, Apex/Apex with the Sram ones, and Force/Force are Alligator iLink, the Ultegra/DA was on the bike that is now Force/Force, so same cable runs etc.

I like the way you can make the metal belt thing jump onto different sized sawing circles. It's like a machine or something.

You understood wrong.

I referred to this article:
http://inrng.com/2011/01/2011-team-bikes-the-decline-of-campagnolo/

Not sure how good a coverage of things it provides.

The list I posted is 2012 yours for 2011. I'm sure Garmin were using Di2 whereas your list says SRAM.

That's even worse for SRAM if teams are moving back to Shimano after a season. Perhaps SRAM doesn't want to cough up the sponsorship money since they've well and truly entered the market now?

The list I posted is 2012 yours for 2011. I'm sure Garmin were using Di2 whereas your list says SRAM.

That's even worse for SRAM if teams are moving back to Shimano after a season. Perhaps SRAM doesn't want to cough up the sponsorship money since they've well and truly entered the market now?

Now I know.

And I do agree.

What exactly does how much sponsership you dish out, have to do with quality of groupset?