Running

I tend to avoid old people and men with side burns. Yummy mummies are best.

Very good (I was particularly impressed by eyebrows' posts, of which I understood about 2%). Thanks all.

Next question: how much bread are you allowed to eat after a run before it becomes obscene?

Definitely 1 loaf.
1 1/4 and you're edging towards a problem.
2 and you need to get some help.

But what do I know?!?!?

Or stealing it from children's lunch boxes.

Or going back for seconds at Holy Communion.

Ah good. I haven't hit the one loaf mark yet so everything is OK.

3 laps.

3.02.20
22.15 miles.

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/143378974

Garmin data to follow after a long hot bath and an afternoon

its alright we believe you.
sounds like perfect distance for anyone doing spring marathons and the london

For London I'd say that distance (& time on feet) was about peak and shouldn't be reached until mid March. Sustaining it from now until April could be challenging, but we're all different so go for it. Good stats still, anytime of the year.

I'm sorry sharkstar, but thats wrong.

You do need rehydrating for any lengthy run , especially in cold weather, as you dehydrate at a similar rate, but you have a reduced thirst drive. *

On the note of early drinking in marathons, some people use it as a motivating force/ rhythm, plus, little and often (+electrolytes) = good hydration. Lots and infrequently (-electrolytes) = poor hydration.

I said a few things, not sure which you think is wrong. (By the way, I am totally comfortable with being wrong. Apparently it's the new being right.) My thoughts on this topic have been shaped by Tim Noakes (whose book 'Lore of Running' I have had to buy three times now). Over-hydration is a much bigger threat than dehydration in organised races: I think hyponatria was the cause of death of the last person to die in the London Marathon, for example. Noakes' view is that we should be guided by our thirst about whether we should take on water, niceties about reduced thirst drive to one side. I find it difficult to believe that the folk who rush to the water station at the 4k mark are responding to their thirst.

More on this (in an accessible form):

http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,s6-242-302--8785-1-3-2,00.html

Google 'Timothy Noakes Hydration' for the medical papers.

i've never done any research on the topic but i follow the little and often route.

i will happily run for an hour without water or food though, but then that's something that i have trained to do.

a person who has slowly built up to their first 5k race is in my opinion more than welcome to drink 5 litres if thats what they need.

its better* than sinking 5 pints in the pub

*for your health.

For London I'd say that distance (& time on feet) was about peak and shouldn't be reached until mid March. Sustaining it from now until April could be challenging, but we're all different so go for it. Good stats still, anytime of the year.

absolutely agree that its very early to be running this distance in preparation for a spring marathon.

in mitigation i am going for what i consider to be a fast time, you haven't seen my training plan but i'm now entering a speed/strength/maintenance phase while i loose the rest of the weight i want to over the next month and then will try putting everything together in the final month of training.

that and i'm also training a 50 mile race in the summer!

only saying that as gf is on 22 milers LSD now. I couldnt do that or anything like it or anything yer but no but yer but no but

feck these things are really cold!

I said a few things, not sure which you think is wrong. (By the way, I am totally comfortable with being wrong. Apparently it's the new being right.) My thoughts on this topic have been shaped by Tim Noakes (whose book 'Lore of Running' I have had to buy three times now). Over-hydration is a much bigger threat than dehydration in organised races: I think hyponatria was the cause of death of the last person to die in the London Marathon, for example. Noakes' view is that we should be guided by our thirst about whether we should take on water, niceties about reduced thirst drive to one side. I find it difficult to believe that the folk who rush to the water station at the 4k mark are responding to their thirst.

More on this (in an accessible form):

http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,s6-242-302--8785-1-3-2,00.html

Google 'Timothy Noakes Hydration' for the medical papers.

The cold weather= no drinking.

Thirst is not a good indication of hydration level. The amount of hormonal influences* on it alone, let alone the fact it deteriorates with age, mental state, and emotional state, means that as a measure of your body's hydration- it is poor at best. It's a truism, but "when you feel thirsty, you're already dehydrated" holds good.

As I said upthread- Over hydration is not the problem (even if you drank Noakes' reccomended amount, you'd still face potential hyponatraemia, because you're body is not replacing the sodium), but incorrect hydration is.

And just as a final point, I'm not saying for a minute that I advocate a certain level of drinking. My knowledge is purely from a non-excercise specific endocrine book, published 2010, so fairly up to date, so I have no amount that I would recommend, however, from your link- the advice at the very end is probably the best:

follow the USA Track & Field guidelines that recommend weighing yourself before and after a workout to determine your unique sweat rate per hour. From this, you can plan how much to drink every 15 to 20 minutes while running a marathon. (Sixteen ounces of fluid for every pound you lose.)

I'd suggest to not trust your thirst, its fallible, and doesn't measure the key variable in this situation, which isn't blood volume, but [Na].
That's what will kill you.

*Best example I can think of at the top of my head- during the menstrual cycle women exhibit different thirst levels, depending on the stage in the cycle.

I think I'm liking my return to running, even though I'm still tired from this morning's session. 3.05m in 26.55 mins plus a 3mile round trip to/from Brockwell Park.

On the hydration front: When I was running fit I could go for about an hour before I needed water and it was usual for me to come home with water or whatever fluid I'd started out with. As I'm finally in training for a half marathon, it will be interesting to see how I deal with the hydration issue this time round. Once I've bought a Camelback, that is. Carrying a bottle in my hand eventually gives me cramps.

@Eyebrows - just so everyone is clear, the full quotation says: "the Consensus [published in the Clinical Journal of Sports Medicine] gives you two hydration options: Drink according to thirst; or follow the USA Track & Field guidelines." Your advice to prefer the latter option is based on your reading of your non-excercise specific endocrine book. Is that a fair summary?

Yeah, because following your thirst doesn't work.

It will lead to either dehydration or overhydration just as easily as euhydration.
The only good way is being properly scientific and measuring your sweat, and rehydrating at that level.
Which is actually what Noakes says: http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/adis/smd/2007/00000037/F0020004/art00050
"This article argues that humans are designed to drink just enough to maintain plasma osmolality, not necessarily bodyweight, both at rest and during exercise."
Otherwise you might as well just guess.

To further illustrate: If you can get this article:
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/adis/smd/2002/00000032/00000015/art00001
However in a summary of the results:
"Thirst:
Advantage: Positive symptomology
Disadvantage: Develops too late and is quenched too soon"

It suggests Urine color as a good method.

Yeah, because following your thirst doesn't work.

It will lead to either dehydration or overhydration just as easily.
The only good way is being properly scientific and measuring your sweat, and rehydrating at that level.
Which is actually what Noakes says: http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/adis/smd/2007/00000037/F0020004/art00050
"This article argues that humans are designed to drink just enough to maintain plasma osmolality, not necessarily bodyweight, both at rest and during exercise."
Otherwise you might as well just guess.

I don't think Noakes is arguing that our early human ancestors were 'properly scientific and measured their sweat'. He's suggesting they drank according to their thirst, which was dependent on serum osmolality. Which is exactly the point I am making, and exactly the opposite of the point you are making.

wait, reading new endocrine textbook

i think smallfurry has done some self testing on this.

and he's a scientist, so i'm prepared to trust that.

much in the same way i have made up my own training plan and sent it to a friend who is a fitness coach with the GB swim team, (oh and happens to be running the UTMB) she says it'll work so i now trust that and will stick to it, with the addition of a recovery run once per week and some running specific strength training.

He's suggesting they drank according to their thirst, which was dependent on serum osmolality. .

This is true. I have made a previous error.
the big book of endocrinology, contradicts the previous statement I made and removed.

However, if we went on whatever a caveman did, what is the point in any of this 'science'.

Thirst is still not reliable enough, if you want proper hydration.
thirst is reliant on 2 major hormones:
ADH and Angiotensin 2.
ADH will be released more during exercise, causing you to overhydrate potentially.
As well as the fact as stated above that it is too late a sense of when you are actually dehydrated as it is in response to a 2-3% drop in osm, whereas a smaller change will cause adverse effects. And/ or a 15% decrease in BP.

If anyone fancies running a half marathon tomorrow, feel free to join me and the rest of the City Runners Club, 11.15 for an 11.30 start, meet outside the fashion and textile museum on Bermondsey St. Bring your own hydration.

Don't laugh, but I've just run 3km at 6'/km pace - for a first time in twenty years. Actually it was probably 4km when the 90 sec running/2 mins waking warmup was included.

I think I need to slow down and do a proper couch to 5k walking/running programme, because I can feel my legs already. I haven't been cycling for two months either, so severely out of shape.

Anyone on here uses Nike+?