Polo Bikes

I've penned an email to John and Lee about the frame. I will probably send it after a snooze and re-read. It is the only thing I've been looking forward to for months and I've gotten a bit frustrated with the mistake. With this in mind, I hope I don't sound like a douche in the email, but this is tons of money to me, it'll be the most expensive bike in my fleet by a big margin.

I hope everything works out!

I don't think you're presumptuous in expecting your frame to be in full working order after having paid as much for it and waited as long as you have. They should be absolutely head over heels doing everything in their power to sort this out for you as a priority.

Tru dat.

Okay, after the email I got a call from John asking me to 'design the bike in BikeCAD and we can send that over to Lee'. I'm not really a frame builder, I thought that's what I was paying lots of money for. I can't make sense of BikeCAD anyway, after 2 hours... but apparently Cameron did it this way?

Cam if you can help me fathom BikeCad?

I'm not really sure I should be doing this to be honest. I really didn't want to go down the route of asking for money back, but the whole experience has left me thinking I really should. I know the customers who come to my shop would have asked for it back a long time ago.

Jimmy is the problem (with the bike) that its just too short in the back end? Would longer drop outs work? Or do you need to unbraze the back end and have longer chainstays?

Yeah, it's not long enough at the back to tension the chain, or take a 1.5 tyre even at the very back. The chainstays are too short essentially.

AFAIK there aren't longer dropouts available, as I'm having sliding dropouts. Or yeah, this would've been an easy fix.

I've just spoken to John and he says if I can't work out BikeCAD we just have to tell him to lengthen the stays and maybe put a wider BB shell on to accept the tyres, and we're done. He reckons unbrazing the rear end then rebrazing is the best way to go.

Because I'm so unsure about this, and because it's so much money for a lowly bike sales assistant. I've asked to speak to Lee directly when he gets back from his holidays next week. I don't understand Joh sometimes because in the discussion we just had he told me it was very specific and if I wanted it super specific then I'd have to give Lee a specsheet with all the angles and lengths done for him. But, I thought that's the reason you go to frame builders? You don't just send the numbers to a far eastern frame builder to do, or rip the geo off and take it to any of the plethora of frame builders in the UK who'd knock it up for cheaper. I don't understand why Lee can't talk to a normal persona bout what they want and then build it.

Is he expecting me to believe that every custom frame in the world is designed by the customer in bikeCAD and then given to the frame builder to just follow instructions?

John says he doesn't understand why I'm stressing about it. I don't know how much money John earns but paying up-front for this has seriously put me out. If it was a chocolate bar and it wasn't what I asked for, fair enough. But this kinda money? This is why I went to 14 and I didn't just send Marino a bunch of numbers I'd painskakingly worked out myself. I don't have the time to learn about bike geometry, nor do I have the money to design it, get it wrong, and have an expensive experiment to hang on my wall.

Can't you just bring in the wheel + tyre you want and say "Make this fit in there"?

If I'm cool being without my wheel and tyre for 6-8 weeks whilst it's in Coventry, yeah. Surely as a frame builder you have 26-inch wheels and tyres floating around, or have the measurements...

Incidentally, I'll probably end up doing this. I'd really rather not, as it means no polo for a long time. The whole situation is not making me feel great about Polo :/

I feel for you. This is a mess you should not be in. They need to sort out their process.

You would assume as it was specified they would have tried to get their hands on one.

Not ideal in any way but worst comes to worst shit "bankrupt" ebay wheel and equally awful tyre, get them to reimburse the cost ;)

Poor man. Sympathies indeed.

Maybe tell them what your ideal outcome is and then try to go from there. For instance, the bike they've designed so far, with the right size chainstays and then a guarantee that if there's a crack around the braze in 6 months, that you can go back in and they'll sort it out. Or if your ideal outcome is money back, then ask for that but be prepared you might not get it. That's not to say they shouldn't. If you wanted, you could start getting into a discussion about faulty products (I'm sure you've had that one in the shop), but that won't get you playing polo any quicker.

I'd go down in person and speak to them on a level. "Okay, this is a lot of money for me. This bike doesn't work in the current setup. I don't know how to use BikeCAD. How can we sort this out?"

That's essentially what i said to him the last conversation. We've agreed to let Lee redo the backend after a discussion with him about what i want. I don't want my money back I want to make this work, all the components I've bought are for this bike, and I wanted to support a startup manufacturer in the UK... 14 have made some brilliant bikes and ideally, one day, I want to be selling them through my shop!

I want them to be the kind of supplier we deal with at my shop, professional and willing to sort things out whatever the cost to themselves in order to sort the customer out, learn, and make sure it doesn't happen again. I really hope they'll do this.

I feel for you Jimmy, this is exactly how i felt when Tim and me were delayed with our frames for months and then sent ones with the wrong geo. When its all sorted out you'll forget the whole thing and polo will be awesome again. Some frame builders really seem to be shooting themselves in the foot with these frames as other players are put off ordering a frame with them, as far as I know Tim and me are the only UK players with Mister X frames.... Doesn't seem to difficult to meet customer satisfaction to me, make a frame to the clients specification and deliver it on time. Plus throw in branded mug / hat / tshirt / beer koozie for extra points.

professional and willing to sort things out whatever the cost to themselves in order to sort the customer out, learn, and make sure it doesn't happen again.

Customer service 101

I genuinely hope they sort this out for you, Jimmy. If I get moneys together to build up my new bike next month, you're welcome to my pomp for the duration of your wait.

In future go to the builder direct and (if possible) get to know your builder first.

Lee probably has little interest in your job (as John/14 will be taking some of the money for the sake of the head badge, leaving him with a tight job to turn-around at a profit).

14 have failed to manage your job properly (design and quality control) and now need to make good on their promise, or give you a refund... telling you to send in a BikeCAD design is laughable.

Also: Never pay in full without good reason.

It's disappointing. But lee is a good guy and a good frame builder. I think there is a bit of a problem in the communication process and i wonder if when Lee is back you go to see him with the frame and the wheel and say. "see, this won't work and its not what i ordered..." Let him and john deal with who pays for it, but it won't be you.
tbf Lee did not make Todd or Josh's bikes, so its a different matter. I'm sure John is trying to be helpful when he says do it in bike CAD. Because i dont think he uses it, but maybe its how Cam got what he wanted and he figured it would be a good way of sorting out your problem. Yes you asked for a custom frame and you asked for a specific that was not met, but i think that saying someone is bad builder because of a mistake isn't quite right.
What we as polo players ask for in custom design is much more than most people go for. Jono you said yourself that an Oak is an entirely different price depending on angles, cables, trail, tubes etc. Its no different with 14, the problem is that John is in London and Lee is in coventry.

So how was the geometry communicated in the first place?
What did you ask for Jimmy?
Same geometry but with sliding dropouts?
It seems to me they've taken the classic rear end (track dropout style) and switched out the dropouts without checking. I could be wrong.
It seems a very silly mistake from a top frame builder.

They'll definitely sort it for you so hang in there.
You don't need to use Bike Cad as the issue is obvious.
Make the rear end longer so you can use the sliding dropouts properly!
Not that hard to figure.
Make sure all your other specs are good first though...

That's a good point. Measure it up fully, if it's going back to the builder it might have other inaccuracies you want fixing.

Hang on in there Jimmy, it'll come correct in the end.

I think this is why John wanted me to use BikeCad, to get me completely happy with everything before sending it off again. I can see he's trying to get it sorted it's just frustrating in terms of communication and customer service, which I think would be remedied by direct contact with the builder.

I might be wrong here, but normally the builder draws your frame for you (after a consultation) and once you're happy with the drawing (normally after a few revisions) you sign it off and the frame goes into production.

Doing it in BikeCAD now is a good idea if there was no previous drawing, but 14 or Lee should really have done it (be doing it?) in my opinion.

Did they pluck the stay measurements out of the air, or did you send them a bum drawing initially?

I never sent them a drawing, except of the base of the fork for the bashguard mounts. My spec sheet was txt otherwise. John sent me a drawing early on in the process but I just said all angles as the ones you've built before, and the sizing of Chris Pickerings as I'd ridden his and it felt good.

does chris have the same dropouts?

nope.

does chris have the same dropouts?

Getting to grips with BikeCAD, it'd help if any 14 owners who were sent a specsheet by John could forward it onto me. I still don't feel I should be doing this at all, but I was quite alarms when looking at the specsheet John sent me and it's trail was 96mm.... wtf? Was under the impression ideal Trail was 64/65/66?

Understanding Bike Geo more is a positive. Not being able to talk to Lee about it isn't. Just need to patiently wait I guess.