Why is this better than that?

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  • to a certain extent people are going to be paying more for expected better quality.

    There's gonna be an obvious quality difference between a £100-200 bike and a similar £600+ bike, but above that there probably gets less of a difference.

  • why? if you think your lotus is the same as a nagasawa i would stick with it!

    I think aesthetically they are the same.

    I wanted to find out whether they would perform the same. Which by the responses on this thread I think they do. From what I have gathered people buy these bikes mostly for the name (and associated history) rather than performance.

  • I think aesthetically they are the same.

    I wanted to find out whether they would perform the same. Which by the responses on this thread I think they do. From what I have gathered people buy these bikes mostly for the name (and associated history) rather than performance.

    I think many people do buy frames/ bikes for reasons other than performance (buying into a brand image; supporting British manufacturing in the case of Bob Jackson etc).

    However you really need to thoroughly compare your current frame to (say) a Bob Jackson Vigorelli, considering for example: geometry; tube material (including heat treatment and other processing techniques and whether they are butted tubes or not); weight and probably some other factors.

    Then it comes down to fitness for purpose. Say your current bike is roughly grass track geometry (I've heard this is what BJ's are) and they use the same type of tubes to construct the frame, then the only real difference is aesthetics.

    This of course assumes that durability is not an issue (your current frame is presumably in good condition?) and sourcing components is not difficult (see: people converting Peugots being unable to easily find suitable seatposts etc)- again not likely to be an issue. And of course the issue of fitting components may be irrelevant here (don't some NJS frames have 110mm rear dropout spacing?)- clearly people are willing either to spend time sourcing obscure components.

    I could continue but I fear I'll be rambling.

    EDIT: Why don't you try riding someone's Bob Jackson (or Mercian, or Nagasawa, or whatever). You could at least compare the feel of your bike to the feel of some standard geometry frames. And if they don't suit, you'd be best sticking with your current frame until you know why they don't suit, at which point you could get something custom built (would probably cost less than that Nagasawa, and definitely worth it in the long run as standard bikes are a compromise to suit the majority of regular-sized people).

  • to a certain extent people are going to be paying more for expected better quality.

    There's gonna be an obvious quality difference between a £100-200 bike and a similar £600+ bike, but above that there probably gets less of a difference.

    But all quality road frames, started out being a £600+ (or equivalent frameset) often custom built for a rider in the same way keirin frames are.

    Aside from the big names, colnago, pinarello etc, old road frames (thankfully) seem to be hugely undervalued. The good ones are obviously every bit as good as a brand new bob jackson etc, possibly better.

    An older small name (but quality) <£200 frame bought second hand off ebay, could possibly cost up to a grand to build today.

    Keirin is one of the few professional cycling disciplines where steel frames are still standard, so all manner of fancy tubing is available and very high modern standards.

    This gives them a higher price to start with, combined with well paid japanese craftsmen. And then of course you have the huge worldwide fixed gear explosion & hipster NJS obsession, desire of the exotic & exclusive.

  • So its the same reason I buy Supreme Tee's. I want to appear cool and to a certain extent feel like part of a 'scene.'

    If that's the case get some stickers put them on your bike and see if you no longer want to buy a new frame...

    You will still want to buy one... even if it was exactly the same as your current frame in look/coolness and feel... we are living in a consumer world and we are all just consumers... you need interests to fill your time, once you have interests you will think about those interests... perhaps read forums/magazines about these interests and then feel jealous of the people mentioned in them... or the other people you know... jealous might be the wrong word... you may want to compete for the worst in what has become your social circle... what ever happens you will want to work to earn money to buy things and in the end you will want to buy things with the money you earn...

    Having said that, I want a new frame too... can't justify it... I want 531 (currently riding 501... how much difference is that going to make?!) and track ends with tensioners (although I do have a tennis ball at home that's working fine)... Doesn't have to be a big name although I'd like it to be handbuilt... I don't know why I want it either...

  • ok, then non chromoly steel rides better then chromoly steel.

    The difference between 531 and 4130 is minimal. (0.n % more carbon in 531 or somthing like that) If you made two frames from each tubeset with exactly the same thickness and butting etc, I would be very surprised if you could tell the difference.

  • Kierin frames are stuffed with used Japanese school girls knickers, which = more money.

  • funny how japanese cars are usually good value but lack the perceived added value of say a merc, bmw or jag yet people are prepared to pay over the odds for a few steel tubes welded together because it's japanese. the only real reason to buy one is rarity value. the u.k has some fantastic framebuilders who build great bikes buying one from abroad is just a vanity purchase.
    Edit: actually the only reason to buy one is if you are racing the Keirin circuit as you can't ride with anything else. and if the bikes are so amazing why isn't chris hoy using one when he rides keirin?

  • The difference between 531 and 4130 is minimal. (0.n % more carbon in 531 or somthing like that) If you made two frames from each tubeset with exactly the same thickness and butting etc, I would be very surprised if you could tell the difference.

    the differance in the metal is not the issue with bikes, but in the tube sets made from that metal. most 4130 tube sets are going to be a lot less enginereed then your 531 tube sets of yore

  • Don't know if this is true, but I read that the Japanese go even more mental about NJS stuff than the rest of the world do, therefore going to Japan to buy stuff doesn't = bargains galore.

  • http://keirinculture.com/features.shtml

    All your second hand NJS frames are crash damaged :P

    Why NJS?

                          What&#8217;s the big deal with the little stamp? Isn&#8217;t just all about gambling?           Every piece of equipment that can be used in keirin racing must be approved by the              officials of the NJS, and this group of only Japanese manufacturers is definitely an            exclusive club. As far as components go, there are only a few brands you&#8217;ll see currently             in production: Nitto, MKS, Shimano, Kashimax, and Sugino are the big ones. Over the years           the NJS has seen some legendary stuff come and go, most notably Suntour Superebe Pro.           Suntour. The name of Suntour is still around, but it&#8217;s unlikely any of it is still made in            Japan. What you do see in all of these components, past and present, is a high attention to             detail that you&#8217;d be hard-pressed to find anywhere but Japan. 
                          What you&#8217;ll also find is a staunch traditionalism:                
    

    []Only loose ball bearings are allowed for headsets, bottom brackets, pedals, and hubs. This sounds strange in the world where weekend warrior road racers now spend hundreds on ceramic cartridge bearings that spin much better than their steel counterparts. Keirin racers spend a great amount of time maximizing the performance of their equipment. One of the ways they often do this is by using a light oil on hub bearings rather than heavy grease. This treatment is only good for a few rides but gives the hub the performance of the best cartridge bearing hubs.
    [
    ]Although Shimano Dura Ace Octalink bottom brackets are NJS-approved, the racers rarely use these. Instead they use the square-taper Hatta or Sugino bottom brackets that are installed by the framebuilder with a traditional crank. Dura Ace is generally the choice crank of keirin racers, with racers occasionally using Sugino 75.
    []Clip and strap pedals are the only style approved by the NJS. The most popular model is the MKS Custom Nuevo with Kashimax Five Gold single straps. Racers are allowed more choice in shoes, with many using road shoes like SIDI.
    [
    ]The rims are Araya Gold 36 hole tubular. There is no carbon fiber anywhere on these bikes.

                                      The frames, no matter what brand, are always of the highest quality. When you&#8217;re thinking about           a used keirin frame, think about everything that went into it. The racer orders the frame according             to his personal preferences, ones that he&#8217;s developed after racing for up to 30 years. Even with              that status he will pay anywhere from $1000 to $2500 for a frame. There are no sponsorships in              keirin racing. He chooses the frame tubing (now usually Kasei or Columbus), lugs, and paint, too.           After that he waits, weeks or months for the builder to finish.
                      The builders are also something you wouldn&#8217;t expect to see in modern times. Some, like Bridgestone,           are larger shops, but most consist of a master and a few assistants. Often these master builders            worked as apprentices to the greats of the past. For instance, the builder of Kiyo Miyazawa frames              apprenticed with Rossin in Italy. Most of the shops are located in small garages with no storefront.            They painstakingly build the frames one at a time, then send them off to one of the few paint           facilities in Japan. The builders know that the racers&#8217; livelihoods depend on the quality of the              bikes. Very few non-Japanese builders will ever build a frame under this kind of pressure. Keirin           racers start their career as apprentices in high school and often race into their fifties. We&#8217;re              not talking about local weekend racers or the young pro riders you see in the US that move on to            other careers by the age of 30. Equipment failure could be catastrophic.
                      This fear of a frame&#8217;s structural failure is the reason that so many of you ride keirin frames            in the US. Crashes are quite common in these races, and the racers will line up several times           over the course of a three day race. If a frame is involved in a crash then it must be replaced.            Oftentimes there&#8217;s no visible damage. Even if the frame is not involved in a crash, it can only           be raced a certain number of times depending on the level of the racer (S1 is the highest ).            The most common form of damage is the dent on the bottom-side of the top tube. This is caused           by the handlebar swinging around. Kashimax top tube protectors are approved, but racers rarely              bother with them because if one is needed the frame is finished anyway. Old frames are often            used for training. Sometimes this type of training is done on the road. If your frame has           scratches concentrated on the seat stay where near the bridge, it&#8217;s probably been ridden on           the road with a clamp-on brake. Often, though, racers will have several older frames collecting             dust in their closets. The rules aren&#8217;t so strict on components, although handlebars are              replaced regularly. 
                      NJS-approved frames and components are truly special. Every used keirin frame has a unique              history that you&#8217;d find nowhere else. At one point the frame was raced and cared for by a man             whose family&#8217;s livelihood depended on his ability to race it.  That little stamp symbolizes a             history tied into the rebuilding of postwar Japan, but that&#8217;s another story.... 
    
  • Blah blah my steel is better.. alu is shit.. blah 4130531753631953

    http://www.strongframes.com/material_tech/specs/
    :P

  • the differance in the metal is not the issue with bikes, but in the tube sets made from that metal. most 4130 tube sets are going to be a lot less enginereed then your 531 tube sets of yore

    Exactly, which is why you cannot say one rides better than the other...

  • You will still want to buy one... even if it was exactly the same as your current frame in look/coolness and feel... we are living in a consumer world and we are all just consumers... you need interests to fill your time, once you have interests you will think about those interests... perhaps read forums/magazines about these interests and then feel jealous of the people mentioned in them... or the other people you know... jealous might be the wrong word... you may want to compete for the worst in what has become your social circle... what ever happens you will want to work to earn money to buy things and in the end you will want to buy things with the money you earn...

    Having said that, I want a new frame too... can't justify it... I want 531 (currently riding 501... how much difference is that going to make?!) and track ends with tensioners (although I do have a tennis ball at home that's working fine)... Doesn't have to be a big name although I'd like it to be handbuilt... I don't know why I want it either...

    Well said that man. I always carry my tennis ball in my bag...stupid chain.

  • How much would this Lotus frame cost new today? not much less than a Bob Jackson surely?

  • gimme a break, that nag LOOKS completely different, if you can't appreciate it don't make someone else's problem! It takes certain level of depraved bicycle geekery.

    you have a bike, it wasn't expensive, you like it, what exactly is the problem?

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Why is this better than that?

Posted by Avatar for Hobo @Hobo

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