Useless degrees

Yeah, I can believe it. I know a few people who teach at (decent) art colleges with just MFAs, which I find quite baffling...

some of the best insight, inspiration, original thinking and advice that i received in my arts education came from people who were not products of academia but those with experience of the real world who knew how to deal with people and their educational needs.
in my experience this isn't something that people who spend years 'learning' in the academic system are very good at.

Edit: not explaining myself very well. what i mean is people who spend ages learning within the system in the academic cocoon with no real world experience.

some of the best insight, inspiration, original thinking and advice that i received in my arts education came from people who were not products of academia but those with experience of the real world who knew how to deal with people and their educational needs.
in my experience this isn't something that people who spend years 'learning' in the academic system are very good at.

Edit: not explaining myself very well. what i mean is people who spend ages learning within the system in the academic cocoon with no real world experience.

We live in the 'real world' too, you know :)

should I live in the real world instead of a shell?

We live in the 'real world' too, you know :)

now don't take this personally :-)
having revisited higher education establishments on and off in various ways through work one thing really stuck me and that was the thick treacle that the staff seem to wade through as they go about their jobs, it's like watching a film at half speed.
nobody seems to have the desire to get off their backside and actually do anything.

a sweeping generalisation but jeez some of those people need a rocket up the arse!

should I live in the real world instead of a shell?

No

should I live in the real world instead of a shell?

Don't listen to 'em, will, they are realist bastards.

old speccy cunt Woodhead

Oi! I'm wearing my specs today and Clefty says they make me look bookish, and that's good enough for me.

Markyboy's experience of higher education is markedly different to mine (and I'm guessing yours, Ross), because there was a clear line drawn. If you don't pass this, you fail. This works well for Bsc/Msc degrees, but it's much much harder to implement on BAs, because of their subjective nature.

Alex - actually I did a BA, but would have been kicked out simply for non-attendance, which isn't a bad starting place - but I benefitted from a tutorial system, which was quite intensive. I also had to pass first year exams, to progress to second and third years, so I guess I could have got booted for non-attendance, non-performance or just being dim. Amazingly I survived.

should I live in the real world instead of a shell?

I was bored before I even began.

Talking of which I found a handy way to save money as a student was to steal books from Dillons (now Waterstone's) on Torrington Place.

now don't take this personally :-)
having revisited higher education establishments on and off in various ways through work one thing really stuck me and that was the thick treacle that the staff seem to wade through as they go about their jobs, it's like watching a film at half speed.
nobody seems to have the desire to get off their backside and actually do anything.

a sweeping generalisation but jeez some of those people need a rocket up the arse!

One of the things that a good university teaches you is the manifold dangers of universalising the particular. But try not to take that personally :p

Ach, yeah, whatever. We're all total moon-units. So are dinner-ladies. And postmen! And chemists. They're the worst. Bastards.

One of the things that a good university teaches you is the manifold dangers of universalising the particular. But try not to take that personally :p

i never went to university* so have no idea what you mean :-)

*art college isn't university different term lengths, different ethos, different work practice, different drugs and very little class distinction. (IME)

i never went to university* so have no idea what you mean :-)

*art college isn't university different term lengths, different ethos, different work practice, different drugs and very little class distinction. (IME)

That explains so much ;^)

pot smoking hippy of no use to society.

I'm watching you, pal..

i never went to university* so have no idea what you mean :-)

*art college isn't university different term lengths, different ethos, different work practice, different drugs and very little class distinction. (IME)

Unfortunately, almost every single art school in london has had to consolidate and become universities (or part of universities) or face bankrupcy in the past 20 or 30 years.

That explains so much ;^)

being serious for a moment :-) apart from my first year of my degree which was spend doing lots of nice things the last 2 were constant hard work.
we waited outside at 8.00am to be let in by the caretakers and were kicked out at 8.00pm by the cleaners. the tutors were not afraid of giving you a bollocking if they though you weren't realising your potential. some of us shared halls with students from the university and they were shocked at the amount of hours we put in plus the longer terms meant we did an extra 6 weeks study every year. the popular myth of art school hippies on drugs wasn't the case.
But without the driving force of a few key staff members the healthy competition and work ethic could easily be lost.
Today i doubt a tutor would be able to say "that's shit. you know you haven't put any thought into it come back when you have something worthwhile to show me"
the parents would probably demand an explanation as to why their little darling was in tears.

Today i doubt a tutor would be able to say "that's shit. you know you haven't put any thought into it come back when you have something worthwhile to show me"
the parents would probably demand an explanation as to why their little darling was in tears.

And this is key – students have become customers, essentially. The ideal of a free-play of ideas, or of a space where you can be intellectually stimulated by proximity to discussion at the highest level about your subject, everything – all of it becomes subordinate to the commercial transaction model. They want certain things in return for their cash, and will agitate if they don't get them. Attention's one of the things they want, and fair enough. The problem comes, though, when what they want is a good mark, but they don't deserve one.

And this is key – students have become customers, essentially. The ideal of a free-play of ideas, or of a space where you can be intellectually stimulated by proximity to discussion at the highest level about your subject, everything – all of it becomes subordinate to the commercial transaction model. They want certain things in return for their cash, and will agitate if they don't get them. Attention's one of the things they want, and fair enough. The problem comes, though, when what they want is a good mark, but they don't deserve one.

Not so, actually.

At least not in UAL. Tutors are treated like students, and the students are just the people who provide the money. We are definitely not treated like customers.

We are treated as an unfortunate side-effect of the degree, rather than it's raison d'être, by the administration at least.

I was bored before I even began.

Talking of which I found a handy way to save money as a student was to steal books from Dillons (now Waterstone's) on Torrington Place.

And you slate Scousers....

One down the front of the trousers and one down the back was my preferred method. Bags were always a bit obvious. The first thing I nicked was by Frank Kermode;
total hogwash as I recall but since it was 'free', that was ok.

And you slate Scousers.....

Not so, actually.

At least not in UAL. Tutors are treated like students, and the students are just the people who provide the money. We are definitely not treated like customers.

We are treated as an unfortunate side-effect of the degree, rather than it's raison d'être, by the administration at least.

The publication treadmill is the source of that. It's inevitable that academics see students as an annoying addition to their work-load when the need to publish is constantly impressed upon them as their 'real work'. I'm not excusing it; but it is part of the same culture you describe. A sort of institutional disorder.

From their perspective, though, the advent of tuition fees are scary for the reasons I outline. There is a power shift happening in favour of the students. We'll see the full extent of it when we end up with the US system of sky-high fees, I imagine.

Ofcourse it was when I started going to football matches in Bulgaria and trying to murder people that I realised things had to change.

Yeah, bloody Liverpool fans, cunts to a man, the lot of 'em*

*Football knowledge fail. The match was in Istanbul BUT the attack was in Bulgaria

The publication treadmill is the source of that. It's inevitable that academics see students as an annoying addition to their work-load when the need to publish is constantly impressed upon them as their 'real work'. I'm not excusing it; but it is part of the same culture you describe. A sort of institutional disorder.

From their perspective, though, the advent of tuition fees are scary for the reasons I outline. There is a power shift happening in favour of the students. We'll see the full extent of it when we end up with the US system of sky-high fees, I imagine.

Interesting that you say when. I agree, i think it's inevitable.

Remember though, it's actually the government's money, not the students. On the whole, anyway.

I have no qualms with academics, almost all of the trouble comes from the management and admin staff in my university. But maybe this is simply because they have the academic staff under an iron fist of job insecurity.

Administ.

Interesting that you say when. I agree, i think it's inevitable.

Remember though, it's actually the government's money, not the students. On the whole, anyway.

I have no qualms with academics, almost all of the trouble comes from the management and admin staff in my university. But maybe this is simply because they have the academic staff under an iron fist of job insecurity.

The money that's apportioned at the moment via the RAE is the government's, which is why students feel ignored in favour of research, but the tuition fees changed that a wee bit, and that change will presumably continue exponentially 'when' the system does shift further (and I hope it never does…).

Students already pay a hell of a lot to do Masters courses, for instance, unless they are funded, so they tend to have higher expectations of the amount of pastoral and pedagogical attention they'll get in comparison to their undergrad degrees. But of course nothing changes, because the academics are under the same pressures, regardless of how much they're paying. Foreign students get a particularly raw deal much of the time.

Sorry for being so boring. I'll go and make some puns somewhere as penance.

Be a teacher - saftey net for wasters everywhere.