Awareness Raising Spoke Cards Campaign Project?

Yeah, when I called for the ban I knew it was unlikely but I also knew it would get attention from the media.

Likewise painting the road with dead messenger's names. I knew it would get attention within my community.

Look, I am not saying that you guys shouldn't do whatever it is you think is best, but count me out.

I have said why I have grave reservations about the approach you want to take - if you are comfortable with it, then you should go ahead.

No, I am serious. I have already said what I think is wrong the spoke-card thing. I started this journey by calling for a HGV ban, not by distributing leaflets to cyclists which implicit blame dead people for their own deaths.

Sorry Bill, don't see it like this at all. Nothing/nobody is blaming dead people for their own deaths, what we are trying to do is raise awareness and get cyclists to take more responsibility for themselves when on the road. It's absolutely not about who is right or who is wrong.

I vividly remember being at the scene of a fatality involving a lorry and a young female cyclist. Everyone got hurt. I've never seen a hard-as-nails looking bloke (he was your classic truck driving cliche) weep and shake so openly and so profusely as what had happened sank in.

edit: sorry mean 'thought shower' brainstorming is racist.

Thoughtshowerist.

I don't think these cards need to imply that cyclists are in any way responsible for their own deaths. The 'committee' can make sure the message is neutral.

I was brought up with the Green Cross Code, and I don't think it was a bad thing. It made me aware of the dangers of crossing the road, backing up the message from my parents. A lot of kids killed by traffic are in no way at fault, and equipping them with the knowledge to enhance their chances of survival is not apportioning hypothetical blame.

I completely respect Bill's position on this though.

It's absolutely not about who is right or who is wrong.

Bingo !

I agree with your sentiment 100% Bill but surely there is a need to educate cyclists of the danger they face now?

What harm in letting cyclists know that it's dangerous to be there? I agree this should not absolve the haulage industry, and perhaps we should consider targeting cyclists only, ensuring the message is not 'overseeen' by HGV drivers?

Would that be better? And I appreciate that you are much more informed and involved in this debate, hence why I'm asking for your opinion / endorsement.

Thoughtshowerist.

It's 'mental pissdown'.

Paris has a daytime ban on HGVs... doesn't it? Or am I wrong? We seriously should be pushing for this... It seemed unrealistic that smoking would be banned in pubs a few years back.

BTW for the light-in-cab idea I have a smoke machine if you need it.

I agree with your sentiment 100% Bill but surely there is a need to educate cyclists of the danger they face now?

+1

When someone is drowning, it is not the ideal time to start trying to teach them how to swim, you need to get them out of the water and if they live you can then start to think about teaching them to swim in the future to avoid this kind of thing.

I am more than sure that many many more cyclists will be killed in this way before a campaign for HGV ban/limits would even get to the base of the mountain it would need to climb before legislation would be considered - that is assuming the interests of cyclists are put before the RHA and it's considerable political (read: financial) weight.

I just blagged a roll of yellow-line stuff from the roadworks guys working outside my office! All we need to do is blowtorch it onto roads...

could be useful for some direct action, like painting on the road but permanent!

It's 'mental pissdown'.

I love a good pissdown, me.

Sorry Bill, don't see it like this at all. Nothing/nobody is blaming dead people for their own deaths, what we are trying to do is raise awareness and get cyclists to take more responsibility for themselves when on the road. It's absolutely not about who is right or who is wrong.

I think you will find that, if you listen to the debate on this issue, as I have, there are an awful lot of people that rush to blame the cyclist, particularly when it's a dead cyclist.

And you will also find that things like this will be used by insurance companies to reduce compensation paid out to victims, if the insurance company is able to show contributory negligence.

Whilst we are having this debate, TfL is planning to give the local councils more money to spend on painting lines down the left-hand side of the road in London. This will be far more effective in influencing rider behaviour than anything we do.

Skully, I can imagen you at home with your Louminus yellow Karftwork top with the smoke machine pumping out smoke.

pinkgm

I have no idea what you're talking about, my ravin days are over baby.

Not raving, just cooking dinner/ watching TV with dry ice, kraftwork tops and posibly some UV's and a strobe.

I agree with your sentiment 100% Bill but surely there is a need to educate cyclists of the danger they face now?

What harm in letting cyclists know that it's dangerous to be there? I agree this should not absolve the haulage industry, and perhaps we should consider targeting cyclists only, ensuring the message is not 'overseeen' by HGV drivers?

Would that be better? And I appreciate that you are much more informed and involved in this debate, hence why I'm asking for your opinion / endorsement.

No, I think there needs to be two-sided approach. I can email the guy at the lorry blog and see whether he would be up for something.

I can't do this debate very well now. Sorry.

And you will also find that things like this will be used by insurance companies to reduce compensation paid out to victims, if the insurance company is able to show contributory negligence.

So am I understanding this correctly Bill? The lawyer defending the lorry driver pulls out the spoke card and says.. "the rider contributed to his own fate by neglecting to heed advice on this widely available card" Therefore it would have been better for the victim if the card had not existed?

I love a good pissdown, me.

pissist

I think the main problem with using this image as a base for anything is the red blob that is supposed to be the cyclist, the thing near the wing mirror? Is really vague. Is that what it is? or have I totally misunderstood the image?

[/QUOTE]

Bill don't apologise, your contributions are (blatantly) valuable, even if you're too busy to really get into it now.

pinkGM are you stalking me? I'm gonna keep my blinds closed now...

about this yellow line stuff... I want to come up with a really simple motif (like just a simplified lorry, or a danger sign or something). I'm well up for a bit of surreptitious blowtorching... something small and simple, that I could cut loads of, and put em in the ASL zones or somewhere relevant.

I think you will find that, if you listen to the debate on this issue, as I have, there are an awful lot of people that rush to blame the cyclist, particularly when it's a dead cyclist.

And you will also find that things like this will be used by insurance companies to reduce compensation paid out to victims, if the insurance company is able to show contributory negligence.

Whilst we are having this debate, TfL is planning to give the local councils more money to spend on painting lines down the left-hand side of the road in London. This will be far more effective in influencing rider behaviour than anything we do.

You're absolutely right Bill, but I still think that if fewer cyclists nipped up the left at lights or wherever then there would be fewer deaths/injuries and hence fewer compensation claims.

I'm by no means doubting your authority on this subject or your passion for it.

I think the main problem with using this image as a base for anything is the red blob that is supposed to be the cyclist, the thing near the wing mirror? Is really vague. Is that what it is? or have I totally misunderstood the image?

No ! :)

The red area is the area that the driver cannot see from the drivers seat.

The more red, the more obscured.

I agree with you that it is not clear, I will have a go a doing a better one.

Insurance, blame, compensation, cash payouts - I can quite happily leave them aside and deal with the problem of cyclists being killed by HGVs.

You're absolutely right Bill, but I still think that if fewer cyclists nipped up the left at lights or wherever then there would be fewer deaths/injuries and hence fewer compensation claims.

Sure, but what I am saying is that I have doubts about the long-term effectiveness of this approach (I worry that it will make lorry operators complacent, and possibly lead to more negligent behaviour by lorry drivers), AND TfL is painting white lines all over the place encouraging cyclists to nip up the inside. Including at least 2 junctions where cyclist have been killed by left-turning HGVs.

I am not against trying to educate cyclists, but I have become more and more convinced that the cycle lanes are encouraging dangerous behaviour by both cyclists and drivers. So in my view, the most pressing things are:

Getting blind-spot mirrors fitted to trucks and getting the drivers trained to use them.

Trying to get bad cycle lanes removed.

Sometimes the simplest things get across the biggest messages - i also think that a lot of cyclists have very little idea about road safety, and are not aware of how other road users, such as HGV's use the road space (for example they don't realise that despite starting a turn miles out from the curb, how quickly the trailer of an HGV will be next to the curb, and on top of them)

Cyclists as a whole are the most undertrained road users, like i have said in other threads my Motorcycle training was the best thing i ever did for my cycling, because you are taught how to react to other road users, and how other road users occupy the space on the road and how that affects you. I dont know for fact, but i am sure that as part of their training HGV drivers are taught to look out for the cyclist coming up the inside, but as anyone who has driven an HGV will know, once a cyclist is in that position it is nigh on impossible to clock them - i used to drive a LWB transit for a living and it was hard enough in that. Of course that fact that they are probably taught to look out for us, means that an obvious failure to do so it rightfully prosecuted.

What i like about this campaign is it isnt some TFL advert thought up by some trendy media company, nor is it a preaching too from some lycra clads who the average cyclist cant relate to . . . instead this is a campaign that will be born out of a community of cyclists who probably represent the broad spectrum of Londons cyclist more than most, add to this that we all fly about on "cool hipster bikes" that are so a la mode right now, and tend to ride around in pretty casual gear, i think it is far more likely to sink in when someone says to us, hey whats that thing in your wheels about, and we talk to them on a level they understand. No one likes being lectured, but everyone like a discussion, as LFGSS shows!

To my mind if it save one life, its an excercise worth doing, especially given the amount of media whores on here who can spread the word of what we are doing.

The point is we should never put ourselves in a position where we can be blamed for the accident, we should all know how to ride the roads safely, and hopefully with the likes of BB heading the charge with the powers that be, it will only be a matter of time before HGV contractors, town planners, and the rest of the powers that be take notice of the need for some serious reform.