Training Advice

Interestingly (to me only, obviously) having seen the physio again today, I have an abnormally small amount of red blood cells coupled with an abnormally low % of slow twitch muscle (compensated by abnormally high white blood cells and abnormally high fast twitch %).

These where some prelim findings and I will get the full set of result next week, but she said basically there is only a certain point I can push my muscular endurance too, and it will never be good :-(

Perks of joining a new gym :-)

Apologies to any physio types if I made some mistake, she explained it much better.

I have poor lungs, but for the past couple years Ive been really active. Doing lots of fast bike riding (for me) a couple times everyday, and recently some lifting. Tests at the doctors showed that I increased my lung capacity from about 60% (reccomended for age group) to about 85% over the past few years. But the most surprising thing is that my haemoglobin level (the bit of the red blood cell that holds the oxygen) is much higher than normal. The doctor said that he has only ever seen this in chain smokers, but I think it is pretty obvious my body has been adapting in the only ways it can to provide enough oxygen.

I dont know about my muscle composition though, but im guessing the fast twitch will be very low. As my sprint speed has always been slow and I could never jump very high etc.

cheap and dirty way to determine muscle fibre type:

http://www.fitstep.com/articles/muscle-building/direct/muscle-fiber-type-training.htm

I wouldn't take that as gospel, maybe those more in the know can confirm if this is ok or hoey!

lol. I can never read those articles. I'm so lazy. I thought it was going to say something like, stand on one foot for a while and divide by 10 or something

Training black hole for me over the weekend. In fact, more negative training really. Going to hit the hills tonight on the way home

was learning to do cartwheels on Sunday and now really achey. non-bike-specific training fail. oh, also headbutted car today in emergency stop fail. helmet ftw.

tomorrow will be better, likely out in RP meeting at Roehampton @7pm.

lol. I can never read those articles. I'm so lazy. I thought it was going to say something like, stand on one foot for a while and divide by 10 or something

haha, yeah you need a gym or some weights for that test.

I tried it and came out very much in the fast-twitch group. I did barbell curls as I don't have enough weight for my max squat at home, though I assume my legs have a similar leaning to fast-twitch as my arms. This comes as no particular surprise as I've never had any amount of stamina for endurance based events, even as a youngster when i was fittest, 200metres running and 100 metres swimming were my best. I couldn't even complete the 1500 metres IIRC.

Interestingly (to me only I am sure) I think the bicep is the smallest major muscle group, and has pretty much no function is any convectional sporting activity, other than 'The Gun Show' and drinking obviously.

Interestingly (to me only I am sure) I think the bicep is the smallest major muscle group, and has pretty much no function is any convectional sporting activity, other than 'The Gun Show' and drinking obviously.

Funny you say 'convectional', as this implies something rising, and I've definitely used my biceps in hillclimbs.

Not a *conventional *event though ;)

Funny you say 'convectional', as this implies something rising, and I've definitely used my biceps in hillclimbs.

Not a *conventional *event though ;)

Biceps are only used very lightly even in agressive hill climbs. It is more so your chest. It is true that biceps are one of the least useful to make 'really strong' you dont really need a strong bicep for anything. Even in pulling motion, its far more bio-mechanically efficent to be using back muscles to pull your arms back.

Anyhow, ive ressurected this thread as im planning on heading to the 'drome for the first time fairly soon and dont want to make an arse of myself.

As I said, ive got terrible lungs and no stamina so I am going to have to rely on sprint power. Ive been doing some barbell stuff and have got my squat to Bodyweight. Can only sprint for about 500metres properly. 30mph or so on 70" gearing.

Is this good enough to show up to a training session?

500m @ 30mph in 70" is fine. If you're intending on using leg strength over lung strength though, you'll be wanting to up your gear quite a bit.

My biceps were properly fucked after various competitive hillclimbs - think 2-3 minutes, with the last minute pushing out 8-10watts/kg power on a 25% gradient.

Yeah thats my road gearing, my bike is totally unsuitable for the track gonna have to borrow one with an epic gear.

In regards to your biceps, I reckon they were compensating for a weak back. In either case you should regularly do chin ups. They are the best bicep exercise, and develops a strong back/lats etc as well as lower pecs, and forearm grip strength. All the perfect upper body stuff for bike riding.

If you can do more than 12 you should add some weight (belt/back pack)

what do you recommend for tennis elbow then?

it's stopping me doing weights ATM, and is starting to affect my riding

is it def tennis elbow rob?

as hold your hand out with the palm upwards, is the pain and tenderness on the inside or outside?

outside

I don't know for sure, just looked at internet things but it seems to be exactly what is described

Yeah thats my road gearing, my bike is totally unsuitable for the track gonna have to borrow one with an epic gear.

In regards to your biceps, I reckon they were compensating for a weak back. In either case you should regularly do chin ups. They are the best bicep exercise, and develops a strong back/lats etc as well as lower pecs, and forearm grip strength. All the perfect upper body stuff for bike riding.

If you can do more than 12 you should add some weight (belt/back pack)

A lot of the pain in my biceps at that point is lactate, just like every other muscle in my body. I've got a long history of doing core training, going back to assorted other sporting endeavours, so I'm no, er, slouch in the back department.

I'm not doubting your physiological knowledge per se, but in this intance, I doubt you've experienced anything closely related enough to my competitive hillclimb efforts to know what's going on. It's beyond the threshold of speculation, a bit like child-birth :O

I totally appreciate your point BMMF! A lot of speculation in the 'proper cycling' area which I dont have much experience of. But ive been reading/learning lots about strength training (and doing a lot) during the past few months and like to share some hopefully helpful advice.

The hardest hill climbs ive done has been mountain biking, where lactate hits my shins/calves first and lungs give out way before I feel anything in upper body ;-)

Biceps are only used very lightly even in agressive hill climbs. It is more so your chest. It is true that biceps are one of the least useful to make 'really strong' you dont really need a strong bicep for anything. Even in pulling motion, its far more bio-mechanically efficent to be using back muscles to pull your arms back.

Anyhow, ive ressurected this thread as im planning on heading to the 'drome for the first time fairly soon and dont want to make an arse of myself.

As I said, ive got terrible lungs and no stamina so I am going to have to rely on sprint power. Ive been doing some barbell stuff and have got my squat to Bodyweight. Can only sprint for about 500metres properly. 30mph or so on 70" gearing.

Is this good enough to show up to a training session?

I'm struggling with stamina too, although my lungs are OK, I have Lactic issues. You will not really know what your issues are until you actually hit that track and spend some time in a race (although you will obviously have an idea from your road experience).

Relying on sprint 'power' probably won't be enough. I have OK sprint power and it gets me nowhere.

I am squating double body weight at the moment, but don't get to do it every session as I need a spot to go that heavy, I normally do easy reps at about 1.5 times body weight.

I was reading somewhere that all the power house sprinters squat over 2.5 times body weight!

I'm struggling with stamina too, although my lungs are OK, I have Lactic issues. You will not really know what your issues are until you actually hit that track and spend some time in a race (although you will obviously have an idea from your road experience).

Relying on sprint 'power' probably won't be enough. I have OK sprint power and it gets me know where.

I am squating double body weight at the moment, but don't get to do it every session as I need a spot to go that heavy, I normally do easy reps at about 1.5 times body weight.

I was reading somewhere that all the power house sprinters squat over 2.5 times body weight!

I cant see my lungs getting much better than Ive got em, like I say my blood has changed to compensate already!

I never get lactate/muscle cramps unless im on a really spinny gear for loooong hill climb, and I can cope with that.

So yeah its gonna have to be power or nothing, ive been doing the weights thing for 4months and got to bodyweight (5x5). By next year maybe ill be up 2x BW. But keen to give track a go this season. I think ill just go for it when I get the chance.

Weights make you fucking strong, but are hopeless for your bike speed unless you do a lot of conversion work.

If you've got plenty of time, both work well, but if time is more restricted, on-the-bike strength training gives a whole lot more value for money.

A month of twice weekly lowish cadence (50-70rpm) VO2Max type sessions might be a good way to join the dots between your weight-trained muscles and your bike-specific fibres, whilst bringing your lungs up to speed. If you really don't want to address racing lung power - probably a bad idea - then standing starts and seated surges are your best bet.

I wouldn't worry about it DFP, just come along to a track training session and see how you get on. If you want to come to ours (Aldersley, Wolverhampton) Mondays is fixed wheel training 8-9pm, Wednesday track leage 7-9pm, Friday road bike training 8-9.30pm. Halesowen will do some training sessions too, although I'm not sure what days theirs is.

Judging from what you've posted here, you shouldn't have any problems

Weights make you fucking strong, but are hopeless for your bike speed

I've noticed :-(

I need training advice!

struggling atm with every aspect, I had an "ok" sprint a few months ago, but now I feel like all the gas is gone and I'm pulling about 80% of what I'm capable of.

everything just feels crap, my legs are not painful, just feel heavy and slow. and in endurance events my lungs just let go early and I'm exhausted way before any lactate hits the muscles. I'm used to struggling with endurance, but not with sprinting too. I did a tiny amount of training today and was exhausted, I fell asleep as soon as I got home. Unfortunately work involves riding 150-200 miles a week at 15mph at the moment, which is the wrong kind of thing for track racing, and I'm feeling tired before i even put my race shoes on*

I felt like this a few weeks ago and took a week's rest, then felt a little better, but now I'm on the back foot again. My body is telling me to rest, but I'm worried It'll be even harder to get back to where I want to be. I wanted to be building on what I'd done in the winter, but this all feels very much like the one step forwards, two steps back thing..

I guess I'm best getting some proper coaching, but I'm just letting off steam here anyway. If anything this forum is a good way to keep a diary, you can go back over stuff and see when you were performing and how well.

*and I still cannot get a comfortable cleat position for my right foot. it's bloody painful sometimes!

Are you eating enough? Drinking enough water? Sleeping enough?

If you're HR's not fucked, and it doesn't seem like overtraining, sounds like you need to think about keeping your training very short and intensive, at least whilst you're tapping out 200 base miles a week.

I'd go for 2 x 30min sessions per week for the next 2-4 weeks. These half hours would include 10min of warm-up, and 10 min of warm down.

In the remaining 10min, either do 30s maximal high cadence efforts (i.e. 30second sprint, 2min recovery x 4), or a batch of standing start things (e.g. 5 standing from 0mph for 10s with 50s recovery; 5 seated from 5mph for 10s with 50s recovery; alternate standing/seated).

So really, I'm advocating a total of 3m40s actual effort (balls out) per week. You get the picture.

sleep yes, eating? well trying my best, I eat a silly amount anyway finding time for it is tough, I use a protein supplement with carbs and aminos in it for recovery and to supplement real food, so i reckon I'm ok there. drink loads of water, i don't hold it well though, always pee it out quickly..

RHR is up, at least 10..........

rpm,

you neeed rest, its that simple, total week off the bike and I promise you will be going quicker than you are right now.

What Lee said - RHR +10 is definitely significant. If not overtraining, you could also be fighting off something - there's definitely some new strains of virus floating around this month.