Victoria Pendleton

Oh arse, what a time for a typo! I meant 'penes', of course.

Isn't that a type of pasta?

Do you really see the world like this? It's not the 70s. Surely nobody in modern Britain thinks that strong successful women are in any way a threat to the status quo. The're part the status quo and have been for decades. Men are attracted to strong powerful and successful women - there's no struggle between this and femininity.

I've thought long and hard about whether I actually mean this. It's maybe not as straightforward as it sounds, because of course there's far more than just one status quo. People see the world in different ways. And don't be so quickly to assume that the problem lies with men. The examples I've thought of all seem to be of women comforting their own insecurities. (Or at least that's my reading of it.)

The interview that accompanied VP's last naked photoshoot (last year sometime - the Observer?) also had her slagging off her 'unfeminine' competitors, and dwelt on the fact that she's really into baking and sewing. I gave her the benefit of the doubt then (I'm really into baking myself, so it would have been a bit hypocritical not to), but this most recent feature just confirms my doubts. (But of course - VP may have been misportrayed, or may feel that her enactment of femininity is very empowering, or something else entirely. I just don't like the way she comes across.)

Another example: I've seen loads and loads of women who, shortly after coming out as gay, rather than doing the stereotypical head-shaving thing, actually become more conventionally feminine, as if to prove that being a lesbian hasn't turned them into a raging bulldyke. I did it myself.

Another example: Some article I read in the last couple of weeks (would have been either the Times or the Guardian) about employment, glass ceilings and women's management style. Apparently women are less likely to be promoted if they're single or childless, because they're seen as being not so good with people, and lacking empathy. (Rather than being women's own insecurities, this is an example of other people's suspicion of women who don't fulfil a certain set of roles.)

Another example: a woman I was a university with - extremely successful in her career, but one confided to me that she was always worried she came across as far too masculine. It actually made me laugh, because she was one of the most feminine (and least masculine) people I knew.

I'm not saying it's a universal pheonomenon - but I've seen it enough to consider it a reasonably prevalent trend. Either you haven't experienced it (in which case, lucky you), or you haven't noticed it - or you just see these things differently. I'll admit that all the cases I've cited could be interpreted in different ways, and I always welcome a change of perspective.

And no, it wouldn't be better to get rid of nice photos of beautiful people wearing not much. It would be indescribably worse. I don't need a return to puritan Victorian moral prudishness thank you. A society which is comfortable with nudity is one which is comfortable with its own humanity and sexuality. A mature society with high level of respect, tolerance and freedom. This is a healthy thing. The opposite can be found wherever Islamists hold power.
I'm afraid I'm with Mitre_Tester on this - and I don't think most of the nudity in our society is healthy. Far too many people are growing up thinking that the only way for a girl to be successful in life is for her to be goodlooking and semi-naked. I try to rise above it, but I ride past god knows how many billboard-sized bikini-clad women every day, and yes - it does sometimes make me feel paranoid about my body.

I'm not a prude... hmmm, just thought about it, and actually maybe by definition I am, but I'm certainly not a puritan. I wholeheartedly approve of nudity, sex and all the rest of it - but I do think it would be a lot more exciting if we saw slightly less of it in public. Only slightly less - I'm not advocating Victorian censorship or anything. But I reckon some people would get a lot more excited by their partners' bodies if they hadn't already seen about 200 pairs of breasts by the time they get home from work.

And I really do object to the way that almost everything these days seems to be sexualized (recently read something in which a man claimed not to change his daughter's nappy 'because I'm a bloke and that would be a bit wrong'), and would like it if it were kept in its place a bit more. But that's probably a whole different discussion...

Ooh - and would anyone be able to link me to the FHM article? I'd be very interested to read it (and make sure I'm condemning her with due cause), but I don't really want to buy the magazine.

Another example: a woman I was a university with - extremely successful in her career, but one confided to me that she was always worried she came across as far too masculine. It actually made me laugh, because she was one of the most feminine (and least masculine) people I knew.

She was probably mainly referring to her behaviour and trying to 'compensate' for it through her looks.

That was a good read Emilia

That was a good read Emilia

Thanks! I logged in steeling myself to find another couple of pages of vitriol. I'm not sure what to do with myself now...

Thanks! I logged in steeling myself to find another couple of pages of vitriol. I'm not sure what to do with myself now...

Have a nice cup of tea. And treat yourself to a chocolate hobnob or two.
That was indeed a good read.

I kind of see where you are coming from with the over-sexualisation of the public space, but I think that a)the genie is out of the bottle now, and can't be put back in by any means other than forceful repression. That would be a very bad thing. b)It is the inevitable consequence of a free, liberal, tolerant democratic society (and of the sexual revolution in the 60s) and we just have to live with it. c)that there are just as many male as well as female examples to be found, and d)that attractive naked bodies are actually natural, very nice to look at, and we'd all live in a healthier society if we were a whole lot less uptight about showing them and allowed ourselves to appreciate our humanity a bit more.

Now I'm not a man comfortable with my own body image. I'm overweight, I'm losing my hair, what there is left is too ginger, I'm too pale, I'm too short, I hate my nose and I have no neck. Nevertheless I don't think that any of the depictions of (male) perfection that you see in adverts and editorials are the cause of these feelings. I am not uncomfortable with seeing them. Neither do I feel that seeing the female versions affect how attractive I find my girlfriend. It's in a different context I suppose.

It is the inevitable consequence of a free, liberal, tolerant democratic society (and of the sexual revolution in the 60s) and we just have to live with it.

Maybe I think this because I wasn't actually there, but my understanding of the '60s was that any liberalisation was a result of social action, whereas the sexualisation we're experiencing today is mainly driven by commercial interests. Maybe that's a gross simplification - especially as a lot of advertising from that era was based on the 'buy this and women will fall at your feet' model, but still, I can't help but feel that the reason why sex is so visible these days is because of advertising.

I wouldn't advocate a return to Victorian values, but my experience of other cultures (Canada and the Netherlands in particular) is that they have a much healthier approach to sex and nudity, and while we do have some very visible sexualisation in the media in this country, it still feels very forced and uncomfortable to me. The problem is that the very reason those countries appear to be doing so well is because they have such a liberal approach to sex in the first place - such as sex education in schools from an early age. 'We' as a nation would be rioting in the streets, bemoaning the end of moral values and teenage pregnancies.

I look at it in a similar way to alcohol - in most other countries where you'd expect there to be more alcohol abuse because young people are given more access to it, you actually find much healthier attitudes. Take France - lots of children are given wine and water with their food, and grow up not to abuse alcohol when they're legally able to buy and consume alcohol. For us we never see the stuff until we're in a position to abuse it - the result being a binge-drinking culture.

I'm sure I haven't put my points across at all well, but I think what I'm getting at is that we're still too controlled - and we certainly don't have the liberal society that BlueQuinn speaks of.

I wouldn't advocate a return to Victorian values, but my experience of other cultures (Canada and the Netherlands in particular) is that they have a much healthier approach to sex and nudity, and while we do have some very visible sexualisation in the media in this country, it still feels very forced and uncomfortable to me. The problem is that the very reason those countries appear to be doing so well is because they have such a liberal approach to sex in the first place - such as sex education in schools from an early age. 'We' as a nation would be rioting in the streets, bemoaning the end of moral values and teenage pregnancies.

I look at it in a similar way to alcohol - in most other countries where you'd expect there to be more alcohol abuse because young people are given more access to it, you actually find much healthier attitudes. Take France - lots of children are given wine and water with their food, and grow up not to abuse alcohol when they're legally able to buy and consume alcohol. For us we never see the stuff until we're in a position to abuse it - the result being a binge-drinking culture.

I'm sure I haven't put my points across at all well, but I think what I'm getting at is that we're still too controlled - and we certainly don't have the liberal society that BlueQuinn speaks of.

I agree! We keep invoking the example of the Victorians - but they had a huge pornography industry underneath all that prudery, and something like one in 1000 houses in London was a brothel. So I don't think repression is the answer. I DO think that a much more liberal approach would help. In fact, I already have a very detailed masterplan for how sex education will work in schools, when I finally take over the world.

Have a nice cup of tea. And treat yourself to a chocolate hobnob or two.

I agree with this too! :-D

attractive naked bodies are actually natural, very nice to look at, and we'd all live in a healthier society if we were a whole lot less uptight about showing them and allowed ourselves to appreciate our humanity a bit more.

But I agree with this slightly less. I mean, I do think naked bodies are wonderful and beautiful, and I love hanging out in places like Hampstead Ladies Pond and seeing them in all their glory. But the attractive naked bodies we most often see aren't natural. They're in films, on billboards, and all over the print media. A significant proportion have been airbrushed (even the 'real beauty' Dove ads), and those that haven't have usually been selected for their svelteness or flawlessness.

I've never seen any body remotely like mine in a magazine, advert or film. I'm very fit, but I still have visible stretchmarks and cellulite, a very flabby tummy, saddlebags, saggy breasts, and hair in places where girls aren't supposed to have hair. None of these 'flaws' is really a problem to me (except in occasional moments of paranoia), but the fact that people aren't used to seeing them means that they're shocked when they do, and consider them ugly or freakish.

Back in the days when I used to act, I observed that when an older, or larger woman takes her clothes off onstage, she somehow looks a lot more naked than a young, slender, pretty one would. We're used to seeing 'pretty' nudity - but exposing the kind of body that's normally kept hidden and private strikes us as shocking and even faintly obscene (and much more artistically interesting, but that's another story...).

Now I'm not a man comfortable with my own body image. I'm overweight, I'm losing my hair, what there is left is too ginger, I'm too pale, I'm too short, I hate my nose and I have no neck. Nevertheless I don't think that any of the depictions of (male) perfection that you see in adverts and editorials are the cause of these feelings.

That's good - and I hope it stays that way. I've read a few things lately about eating disorders and exercise addiction increasing in men, and on the odd occasions when I flick through Men's Health et al, I'm really disheartened by how much they seem to be going down the route of women's magazines in promising 'a new you!' every single month, and churning forth endless diets and exercise regimes.

But I've come across loads of women who are explicitly aiming to make themselves as thin as a specific celebrity, or who will point to some airbrushed fashion shot and say 'that's what I want to look like'.

To give just one example (and then I'll shut up - I know I'm going on and on), I once walked in when my landlady was watching I'm A Celebrity Get Me Out Of Here, and couldn't help but comment on how ridiculous one of the contestants looked - she had massive bosoms, but then rest of her was very small, and her legs! They were really skinny, absolutely straight up and down (no curves whatsoever), and about four inches apart, so she looked kind of bandy-legged. But my landlady said 'are you kidding? I'd LOVE legs like that!'. And yes, she's on a permanent diet. She's very pretty, and a perfectly reasonable size, and has loads of suitors, but she'd much rather weigh about three stone less, and have no body fat whatsoever. It makes me sad.

exposing the kind of body that's normally kept hidden and private strikes us as shocking and even faintly obscene (and much more artistically interesting, but that's another story...).

Oh no, she's introduced "The Female Nude in Art"! We could be here for another hundred posts :-)

This is the picture which your post immediately brought to mind:

The funny thing about Freud is that I can see how brilliant he is, but I'm not sure that I actually like the work, in the sense of wanting to have it on my wall. Not just this work, but his overall body of work.

Can you please stop arguing about VP andjust aprecieate a hot woman who is really good at something.

im quite disapointed that VP's pictures dont have amazing planet crushing thighs in them. her legs are far more normal than i expected. this is a shame: a) shes a world champion bike rider and im a bike geek b) there are lots of women with normal legs c) if theyre airbrushed it means shes not comfortable with having muscle bound legs. this is under the asumption its airbrushed, which i can only expect from FHM.

gender politics are complictaed, but i think we should all really just get over it. regardless of gender we are all just people, and i think there are many things that make us individual outside of our physicality. we should all do what we want and feel makes us happy, its the fools that do what they feel they should. VP got paid and did these photos, as well as other previous terrible shoots out of her own choice. if you do photos for FHM, of all magazines, what are you expecting to get from it. she obviously wants blokes to find her attractive.

im not adverse to pictures of women, but then again i happen to find find women attractive. ive always quite fancied VP from my television, shes an amazing track racer (which i highly respect) and of the type of woman i tend to find attractive. but then its all ruined when i see her in interviews and hear her talk, where i think shes a bit of an idiot.

Best post Emilia.

You coverered almost very thing I wanted to day , including the victorian sex industry.

One thing I would add is that I find my self wondering what Spare Rib and the GLC women's committee would make of all this.

And yes to less sex every where

Can you please stop arguing about VP andjust aprecieate a hot woman who is really good at something.

We're not really arguing about VP any more. The conversation's moved on. Thread drift, and all that.

gender politics are complictaed, but i think we should all really just get over it. regardless of gender we are all just people, and i think there are many things that make us individual outside of our physicality. we should all do what we want and feel makes us happy,

This is pretty much my approach too, but I really don't think it's as simple as just getting on with it. I DO try to live my life exactly as I want to, without worrying about my gender, but I find myself constantly fighting against society's (and my own) expectations, prescriptions and assumptions. Plus, we are brought up as a particular gender from the moment we're born (typical first words about us: 'it's a boy!', 'it's a girl!') and, rightly or wrongly, it becomes a central part of our identity. I completely agree that we should 'just get over it', but I think the struggle to do so needs to be made more visible.

Incidentally, if anyone's interested, there's a very good Pro-Feminist Men's Group in London, that I think is on the look-out for more members...

Good stuff Emilia. See, I don't really care or anything... but the position that always wins the day on these topics, ie that which can be roughly characterised as 'it's her choice good luck to her she's hot you'd make money like that if you could' is kind of vacuous.

'Choice', is all very well, but it's also worth thinking about the idea that choices are, just maybe, not made in a vacuum, and that women used to 'choose' to wear corsets that gave them fatal emphysema, for instance; or that women's complicity in the pornification of society perhaps, just maybe, has consequences for the rest of us, who have to put up with those consequences every time some Sun reading fuckwit shouts and leers at you when you're just trying to get home; or that maybe, and forgive me here, it's a wee bit easier for a man to say 'get over it' than it is for a woman, given that you're not the ones getting the vast majority of the shit, frankly.

VP can, of course, do whatever she wants. There is a wee bit more to it than that, though, if you're interested in thinking about it.

well said.

Oh arse, what a time for a typo! I meant 'penes', of course.

Isn't that a type of pasta?

Hah. Reminds me of a joke in Tabori's Mein Kampf, where the young Hitler asks "what's fellatio?" and is told "a type of pasta".

emilia, i'll try to find some good things on sociobiology for you to read, sorry i've been really busy the last few days at work. i'm onto it though!

emilia, i'll try to find some good things on sociobiology for you to read, sorry i've been really busy the last few days at work. i'm onto it though!

Much appreciated. Was just about to PM you! :)

here's a start: [ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociobiology[/ame]
E.O.Wilson's book is what really kicked the whole thing off, it's been heavily criticised and studied ever since, but it's a good starting point for understanding the debates if you are reasonably scientifically literate.
Steven Pinker's "The Blank Slate" is good too.
"The Adapted Mind: Evolutionary psychology and the generation of culture" (Barkow, Cosmides and Tooby) also looks interesting, haven't read it but i've read some of cosmides and tooby's other work.

Ugly picture she looks like a man

she look amazing in that pic, muscles on woman = hot

vacuous emphysema pornification

These 3 words are really nice to say.
My favourite word to say is 'plinth'.

Sorry, I have nothing really to contribute but I DO like those words.

oh . dear.
concentrate on the cycling please, dont waste your time messing about with this greenwash bollocks--

Oops. Can someone please explain how a fcuking energy company who at the moment aren't exactly falling over themselves to develop new fuels other than of the fossil variety think that for one sodding moment they can get away with trying to pull the greenwash wool over our eyes....

http://www.thelondonpaper.com/talk/columnists/?column=the-chat&plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&userId=bb1c1553-6743-44a2-8e4e-647a28bba5d7&plckPostId=Blog%3abb1c1553-6743-44a2-8e4e-647a28bba5d7Post%3a025f5f28-bae2-4b0f-8c00-16c55525fa2f&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest

It's not much, just a few words, but there's some response from the lady herself about the lads mag photo-shots and green energy b/s...