How can people afford cars?

Its already started in Japan

http://www.newsweek.com/id/112735

The automobile is losing its emotional appeal, particularly among the young, who prefer to spend their money on the latest electronic gadgets. While minicars and luxury foreign brands are still popular, everything in between is slipping. Last year sales fell 6.7 percent—7.6 percent if you don't count the minicar market. There have been larger one-year drops in other nations: sales in Germany fell 9 percent in 2007 thanks to a tax hike. But analysts say Japan is unique in that sales have been eroding steadily over time. Since 1990, yearly new-car sales have fallen from 7.8 million to 5.4 million units in 2007.

skimmed through that, interesting, may use it in an essay. But...

".....Suda reflects a worrisome trend in Japan; the automobile is losing its emotional appeal, particularly among the young, ...."
wtf? funny angle they have on it.

We have a car in London - it's a relic from when t'missus lived in rural Scotland. About the only time it gets used is when we're visiting the folks in Cornwall/Scotland or going to the (now-defunct) Yohan plaza.

That having been said - petrol is still far too cheap. Consider - it's a product that takes millions of years to make, plus a complex refining process, before being shipped in from some of the most inhospitable parts of the world. And it's still cheaper than mineral water, which falls from the sky.

skimmed through that, interesting, may use it in an essay. But...

wtf? funny angle they have on it.

More discussion here

http://imomus.livejournal.com/382444.html

Anyone else here use streetcar (or similar)? It's a PAYG car club with VW Golfs for £5/hr inc. fuel, insurance, etc..

Only times I've really used it were to drive 300 mile round trip to suprise my mum on mothers' day and go to ATP (had to leave late Sunday night -- no more trains).

It's a pretty good service, IMO; I bet there's loads of people who only use their cars a couple of times a week. If anyone wants to join, BTW, you can get free driving credit if you say I told you about it! PM me... ;)

The Japan example is great.
Just got back from our weekly shopping (with the bikes) as we left a woman arrived with her 2 little kids on bikes. She told me that she only recently started cycling with her children. She enjoys it and the kids love it. She still has a car but hopes to use the bikes more and more. She takes her children to school on the bike. She also thinks more and more parents are doing it or thinking of the idea.

Mercedes are to stop building petrol driven cars by 2015

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/06/21/mercedes-wants-to-eliminate-petroleum-from-its-lineup-by-2015/

I have a VW camper van a classic Mercedes and a motorbike. I camper I mainly use on weekends to drive to the coast or other areas of interest. I've also driven it around europe and normally use it a festivals rather than a tent. The Merc was more to satisfy my urge to tinker. The motorbike is my main long distance commuter as it is cheapish to run and fun to ride. On a day-to-day basis I cycle everywhere.

I do love cars as without one I wouldn't be able to have so much random fun (deciding to visit Alton Towers late one friday night, having a road trip to the Sonar festival etc).

i dont get all the anti-car stuff that comes from some cyclists. i think thats a bit like being into chocolate and therefore hatin all other sweets. it dont make sense.

i fuckin love cars, i love everything about them. the design history, the sound, the speed, the smell.. the whole package. sure they're prohibitavely expensive and they pollute the air but they're still landmarks of passion and artistic energy.

you get assholes who drive cars, suprise suprise. you get assholes who ride bikes. assholes who walk, assholes who jog.

dont hate the transport. hate the asshole.

i dont get all the anti-car stuff that comes from some cyclists. i think thats a bit like being into chocolate and therefore hatin all other sweets. it dont make sense.

i fuckin love cars, i love everything about them. the design history, the sound, the speed, the smell.. the whole package. sure they're prohibitavely expensive and they pollute the air but they're still landmarks of passion and artistic energy.

you get assholes who drive cars, suprise suprise. you get assholes who ride bikes. assholes who walk, assholes who jog.

dont hate the transport. hate the asshole.

+1

I the use of a black ford mustang v8 each time I go to the states and I absolutely love every minute I spend in that car.

Even if you live in outer London unless you work in central London getting about without a car is a big hassle. The M25 is a car park but there is no alternative but to drive. Going into and out of central London to go say 20 miles round the circumference of the m25 is very expensive and time consuming. People work in deferent places, their jobs chance and just saying "move to somewhere where you're on the xyz trainline" is not particle. Moving is expensive plus if you have children you may not want to move them from schools. If your too move for a job that is say only 15 miles away is not realistic.

Thats just in London, out of London and out of any fair sized town it really is very difficult to do things without a car.

I fully agree that many journeys by car are unnecessary, that many people drive cars that are too big and unpractical, and I think car sizes will becomes smaller but so many people without an extraordinary or excessive life would be screwed without access to a car. Maybe over the next 30 years the weight will shift but for so many reasons living with out a car for a large number of people is not possible.

I also strongly question the £15 per day figure, I'd like to see the assumptions placed to get there.

Most ppl have a reasonable grasp on how much stuff is costing them. I don't think the average motorist is that stupid as to believe they are getting so badly ripped off. If they did they'd get rid of the cars. Admittedly some ppl will drive 10 paces rather than walk and will drive unnecessarily but thats just the way ppl are.

That said there does seem to be a belief that these ppl "can't handle public transport" and "NEED a car" when often neither is even close to true.

I think ppl need to prove to motorists that there is another way and its not that bad. Even if ppl just do it once a month. PPL will get the message eventually. Well some of them will.

Car ownership will drop (imo) but not drastically.

What people have to realise is that you cannot dictate to the public and expect respect or compliance. I have a car, a motor cycle and a couple of pushbikes. I try to use my push bike or the train whenever possible. People telling me I'm a cunt for driving a big old car makes me want to drive it more.

Educate people at jsut how easy riding a bike is, and that riding it jsut once a week rather than driving would make a difference is al that can be done without resorting to draconian measures that really are only there to benefit the government. *(stupid taxes).

I also strongly question the £15 per day figure, I'd like to see the assumptions placed to get there.

2005 RAC cost of ownership puts the cost of running a Vauxhall Corsa 1.2l at £9.36/day. and a 1.6l Ford Focus at £13.04/day. Since fuel prices have increased some 40% since 2005, that puts it up to some £10.61 for the Corsa and £14.11 for the Focus.

Once you add in other factors (inflation, extra cost of driving in London (higher insurance, paying for a parking space, congestion charge, higher fuel costs than national average)), £15 a day sounds like a reasonable figure for a family size car.

RAC source: http://www.rac.co.uk/web/know-how/owning-a-car/running-costs/motor-index-results-q3-05.htm

^^^ You can't just increase the figures by 40% as they aren't just petrol costs.

Personally I have two cars, an old Mini Cooper that gets used twice a month if it's lucky, and a diesel VW Golf Plus as the family car. Even though diesel costs far more than LPG now it's still cheaper to run that the equivalent petrol version. It still costs almost £70 to fill it though, although that'll be good for 650 miles.

^^^ You can't just increase the figures by 40% as they aren't just petrol costs.

I didn't. I increased the fuel costs by 40%.

Admittedly some ppl will drive 10 paces rather than walk and will drive unnecessarily but thats just the way ppl are.

Ah that remind me of America, last time I was there, I walked for five minutes and a police car came and stop me because I was walking instead of driving, which is a very weird to them.

Meh, everyone's fucked anyway because of the consequences of peak oil.

Then people won't have to be dictated to by their governments; they won't have a choice.

Ah that remind me of America, last time I was there, I walked for five minutes and a police car came and stop me because I was walking instead of driving, which is a very weird to them.

Bill Bryson (I know how cool am I?) wrote something about how he moved back to the States (from England) and decided to go for a walk on evening. He said his friends kept stopping to offer him a lift to where he was going. When he said he was just going for a walk they were flumoxed.

My mtae used to live in Houston and he had to learn to drive pretty quickly. Simply because there are no pavements in the more residential areas. PPL in these areas just don't walk, ever.

Meh, everyone's fucked anyway because of the consequences of peak oil.

Then people won't have to be dictated to by their governments; they won't have a choice.

Everyone's not fucked. Even if we are past or approaching peak - which is still very much moot - there's a lot of oil left in the ground, enough to keep us going while we switch to alternatives. And the fact the price keeps going up means those alternatives get more and more attractive all the time - if the oil ran out with no warning at all, then we might be fucked. But it won't.

The peak oil debate is amusing because most people agree that oil is finite and that when it runs out we'll need to have switched to something different. It's just none of us know when that'll happen, or if it has already started. But in any case, the market is working quite effectively to persuade people to consume less and use alternatives through the price signal, so there's not so much to worry about really.

Everyone's not fucked. Even if we are past or approaching peak - which is still very much moot - there's a lot of oil left in the ground, enough to keep us going while we switch to alternatives. And the fact the price keeps going up means those alternatives get more and more attractive all the time - if the oil ran out with no warning at all, then we might be fucked. But it won't.

The peak oil debate is amusing because most people agree that oil is finite and that when it runs out we'll need to have switched to something different. It's just none of us know when that'll happen, or if it has already started. But in any case, the market is working quite effectively to persuade people to consume less and use alternatives through the price signal, so there's not so much to worry about really.

+1

I have just written, and then deleted, an essay about my thoughts on this and proven to myself that i am as ignorant as every other carrier-bag-reusing fucker out there. suffice to say it was bleak.

Everyone's not fucked. Even if we are past or approaching peak - which is still very much moot - there's a lot of oil left in the ground, enough to keep us going while we switch to alternatives. And the fact the price keeps going up means those alternatives get more and more attractive all the time - if the oil ran out with no warning at all, then we might be fucked. But it won't.

The peak oil debate is amusing because most people agree that oil is finite and that when it runs out we'll need to have switched to something different. It's just none of us know when that'll happen, or if it has already started. But in any case, the market is working quite effectively to persuade people to consume less and use alternatives through the price signal, so there's not so much to worry about really.

joey deacon

Not sure where the playground 'Joey' insult comes from.

It wasn't perhaps the most articulate thing I've ever written in my life, but I stand by the argument that the 'the end is nigh' school of peak-oil theorising is little more than hysteria.

That's not to say that alternatives aren't important - they are - but we're investing a lot of money in them at the moment, money which we wouldn't have thought to invest if oil prices hadn't got so high. So I'm fairly sanguine about the situation, because we seem to be reacting appropriately.

The stone age didn't end for lack of stones, as Sheikh Yamani once said.

i dont get all the anti-car stuff that comes from some cyclists. i think thats a bit like being into chocolate and therefore hatin all other sweets. it dont make sense.

i fuckin love cars, i love everything about them. the design history, the sound, the speed, the smell.. the whole package. sure they're prohibitavely expensive and they pollute the air but they're still landmarks of passion and artistic energy.

Even the Toyota Yaris!?!

Not sure where the playground 'Joey' insult comes from.

It wasn't perhaps the most articulate thing I've ever written in my life, but I stand by the argument that the 'the end is nigh' school of peak-oil theorising is little more than hysteria.

That's not to say that alternatives aren't important - they are - but we're investing a lot of money in them at the moment, money which we wouldn't have thought to invest if oil prices hadn't got so high. So I'm fairly sanguine about the situation, because we seem to be reacting appropriately.

The stone age didn't end for lack of stones, as Sheikh Yamani once said.

ok, I disagree to a certain extent because it's clear we could do a lot more, a lot quicker. but then I'm not completely of the "end is nigh" school and I accept your point.

sorry about the deacon, I was drunk and obviously unable to type a rational argument.

flid ;)