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they're excellent crank, pretty light too for the money., don't think I'll be going for the Campag Pista crank after using the Miche.
I think they're pretty shit.
Harry's right, not much of an upgrade IMO.
I have recently become of the opinion that you should only run top-end cranks. I never used top think it was that important, and had stronglight, sugino messengers etc. But the more I ride fixed, the more I think high-end is the only way to go.
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I have recently become of the opinion that you should only run top-end cranks. I never used top think it was that important, and had stronglight, sugino messengers etc. But the more I ride fixed, the more I think high-end is the only way to go.
Out of interest, what sort of fixed related issues have you experienced with the cheaper ones?
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Well, I haven't had *that *many issues.
But I have noticed that cheaper cranks will flex more - there is a noticeable difference between messengers and 75's for example.
Also, I found that cranks bolts often loosened on cheaper sets (and yes I had been tightening them to the correct torque). The problem with the loosening is that you have to re-tighten, which pushes the cranks further onto the spindle, which rounds the cranks taper. This leads to creaking, and eventual failure.
The bike which I run 75's on was out of action for 6 months, so I was mainly riding a bike with messengers. When I got back on the 75's after all that time, it was great.
The 3 sets I have on my bikes now are:
Dura Ace 7600's (hopefully arriving in the next few days).
Sugino Grand Mighty Competition
Sugino 75. -
I would go Truvativ Omnium (or I would when On-One were selling them for £89 including BB, can't be bothered to check if they still do!)
Unfortunately not, best online price at the moment seems to be £170, and only in silver. We all wish we'd bought half a dozen when they were that price!
On-One's house brand external BB track crank (which is obviously an Andel TRS21) is £111 and seems like the only available option for a 165mm external BB crank, although if you need 170mm the Campagnolo Mirage with a Goldtec ring ends up about the same price
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Unfortunately not, best online price at the moment seems to be £170, and only in silver. We all wish we'd bought half a dozen when they were that price!
On-One's house brand external BB track crank (which is obviously an Andel TRS21) is £111 and seems like the only available option for a 165mm external BB crank, although if you need 170mm the Campagnolo Mirage with a Goldtec ring ends up about the same price
Or we all wish we had kept the ones we bought, instead of selling them because they didn't really go with the steel frame I had at the time.
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@ m...tester you mean £130 for the Truvativs (but yes only in silver):
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3907.m38.l1313&_nkw=truvativ+omnium&_sacat=See-All-Categoriesgot mine from here, very, very good service.
BB, and Chainring included.
Tool is £5-8 from various places.Seriously good cranks, worth the £130.
Miche- I've had 1, changed the chainring- worked great. The BB was terrible.
Stronglight are just a pile of shit, self extractor wrecks the threading, just avoid.
Andel decent for price- in fact I'd say easily the best of the cheapies.
DA- fucking solid as- my favorite
Pauls- A bit loud but Delish, stiff and very, very good.
White Industries- Amazing- buy them NOW!
Sug 75, really good, i don't like them as much as the DA 7600 or 7710s, but they are nice and solid.
Old Campag- Lovely, beautiful and reliable.These are all from 1st hand experience.
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Well, I haven't had *that *many issues.
But I have noticed that cheaper cranks will flex more - there is a noticeable difference between messengers and 75's for example.
Also, I found that cranks bolts often loosened on cheaper sets (and yes I had been tightening them to the correct torque). The problem with the loosening is that you have to re-tighten, which pushes the cranks further onto the spindle, which rounds the cranks taper. This leads to creaking, and eventual failure.
The bike which I run 75's on was out of action for 6 months, so I was mainly riding a bike with messengers. When I got back on the 75's after all that time, it was great.
The 3 sets I have on my bikes now are:
Dura Ace 7600's (hopefully arriving in the next few days).
Sugino Grand Mighty Competition
Sugino 75.Okay, so no issues specific to fixed after all then :-)
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Well actually yes. Both reasons are quite specific to fixed.
Flex is less so, though pulling away from the lights on a higher gear than you would on a road bike for example, you notice the flex. Also, slowing under speed, or simply putting the power down.
Cranks bolts loosening, although perhaps not entirely relevant to fixed, I think that the added strain fixed cranks get put under (from skidding, and the above points) helps the loosening considerably. And the creaking is a lot more noticeable when riding fixed, again due to added strain on the cranks.
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Ok, I've just woken up so bare with me.
I think Campag 111mm is symmetrical, don't think the drive side is any longer than the non-drive, though I'm not sure.
I'm not sure that the 7600 BB is ISO, I've never seen any real supporting evidence, just peoples opinions.
On the point about UN BB's, and people using shorter spindles; the shimano un54 110mm BB gives a pretty straight chainline with the 7600 cranks. The un54 107mm BB also gives a pretty straight chainline, but that is because the 107 isn't symmetrical. Both the 107mm and the 110mm have the exact same drive side spindle length. IMO that is just further proof that the DA 7600 cranks are either JIS, or somewhere between JIS and ISO.
I haven't actually received my 7600 cranks yet, but I have both a Campag 111mm, and a un54 107 (which I plan to try first) so I will experiment for myself.
If the cranks are in-between ISO and JIS, I think using a JIS is the lesser of 2 evils.
I am pretty sure all NJS stuff is ISO. which would make both bottom bracket and crank set ISO.
what would be benefit for shimano making a new JISO taper?
I think you should forget about chain-line until you work out if its JIS or ISO, then choose your BB.
I have a UN54 107mm and mine is symmetrical. and JIS.
a 7600 110mm (or campag 111mm) ISO and a UN-54 107 JIS would give near enough the same chain-line, but the wrong taper, thus risk of damaging the crank tapers.
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Exactly, so whats 'forms' issue?
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^Too much reading, not enough getting his hands dirty? :P I was the same. I researched it for fncking ages and PM'd various people. They got back to me. It was all inconclusive. So, in the end, I spoke to Cliff at Royce about it and on my way home from Bournemouth passed through the workshop with my cranks. He put them on his JIS and ISO bottom brackets and came to the conclusion that they were definitely ISO. Sure, they fitted on the JIS taper (they're square taper after all), but there wasn't as much contact between crank arm and BB taper. As you can imagine they just stick out more on the JIS.
Can we close the case now please? They're definitely ISO. :)
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Flex is less so, though pulling away from the lights on a higher gear than you would on a road bike for example, you notice the flex. Also, slowing under speed, or simply putting the power down.
Your frame will flex on acceleration way more than any set of cranks will. Even the cheap ones.
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^Too much reading, not enough getting his hands dirty? :P
Last time I got involved in this discussion, I actually got my hands dirty and applied a digital vernier calliper to Campag C-Record and Shimano UN-73 spindles. They were exactly the same size across the flats at the narrow end. Just to check, I've measured a Campag Victory and a cheap FSA JIS unit that happen to be on the floor beside me, and again the dimensions are the same:
Across flats at narrow end: 12.68 to 12.71 Campag, 12.67 to 12.72 FSA
Across flats 13.5mm inboard of narrow end: 13.57 to 13.62 Campag, 13.56 to 13.62 FSA
In neither case are the "square" tapers truly square, based on 8 separate measurements on each spindle. On this n=1 sampling, we might say that Campag get closer to 1/2" more of the time.The only remarkable difference between them is that the Campag has a 45deg x 1mm chamfer on the spindle ends, so on a "110mm" spindle the effective length, i.e. the full width from the start of the 2deg tapers, is only 108mm.
The slope of a 2deg taper is 1:28, so the 0.05mm difference between largest and smallest measurements could make a difference of 1.4mm in chain line, i.e. +0.6 or -0.8, which would double if the crank bores are as variable as the spindles.
Somebody else on the same discussion on WW had taken a selection of Campag and Shimano DA cranks and measured the taper bores in the cranks:
Shimano itself says that the 7600 cranks are ISO. Sugino says the same thing about Grand Mighty and 75 crankarms. But ... and this is hilarious ... the Sugino technical documents say that their bottom brackets are all JIS taper. And Shimano has been quoted saying the same thing about their last square-taper bottom brackets.
This is all complicated by the fact that JIS and ISO measure taper dimensions differently. It's not just the angle but also the length and the actual starting width. And the measurements aren't maintained all that well either. We looked at a half dozen brand new 7600 crankarms and couldn't find much consistency among them, or even from left to right. The variance was greater than the variance between ISO and JIS. Lest anyone cast aspersions at Japanese millwork, we checked a pile of Campy Pista crankarms and found the same. The truth is, the tapers are pretty crude
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@Max: pics of my new bike soon, although it has gears so you might not be that excited.
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Should be working on this instead of looking at the forum
forms
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@emoxfag
Ok, I've just woken up so bare with me.
I think Campag 111mm is symmetrical, don't think the drive side is any longer than the non-drive, though I'm not sure.
I'm not sure that the 7600 BB is ISO, I've never seen any real supporting evidence, just peoples opinions.
On the point about UN BB's, and people using shorter spindles; the shimano un54 110mm BB gives a pretty straight chainline with the 7600 cranks. The un54 107mm BB also gives a pretty straight chainline, but that is because the 107 isn't symmetrical. Both the 107mm and the 110mm have the exact same drive side spindle length. IMO that is just further proof that the DA 7600 cranks are either JIS, or somewhere between JIS and ISO.
I haven't actually received my 7600 cranks yet, but I have both a Campag 111mm, and a un54 107 (which I plan to try first) so I will experiment for myself.
If the cranks are in-between ISO and JIS, I think using a JIS is the lesser of 2 evils.