Gear ratios for no brakes riding...

says who?

only if the rider's an idiot.

pedestrians are unpredictable. pedestrian walks out and it is not possible to go anywhere but directly towards them in some cases. braked rider can stop. brakeless can't.

Says you.

says who?

only if the rider's an idiot.

Says the laws of physics. You may be a very skilled rider that rides brakeless, but you are 100% certain to be a better ride if you fit a brake. Being a better rider is not just about yourself, it's also about anticipation, braking/stopping distance, brake modulation.

If a little girl runs out between cars, you are more likely hit her if you have no brakes (given both the brakeless and non-brakeless riders are equally proficient), you are also more likely to hit her at a higher speed because you couldn't slow down fast enough. I can't believe you don't understand this.

There are alot of variables you aren't considering.
Distance, speed, etc etc.

What was that Libre was saying about evidence?

these brakeless/brakes debates are pointless and boring. do what you want with your bike and let others do the same

it depend on the scenario, how wide is the road? how much traffic there is? is the area populated with peds? is it a risky junction? etc.

these brakeless/brakes debates are pointless and boring.

bingo, it's a catch-22, there's no ending to it, like helmet debate.

NO IT DOESN'T. There is no scenario where having no brakes is safer or desirable. In every single scenario you can imagine, having brakes is better.

these brakeless/brakes debates are pointless and boring. do what you want with your bike and let others do the same

cool, I just get wound up when people insist it's not inherently riskier and poses no increased chance of accidents.

.

What was that Libre was saying about evidence?

straw man argument, i was explicitly talking about mdcc's post.

Says the laws of physics. You may be a very skilled rider that rides brakeless, but you are 100% certain to be a better ride if you fit a brake. Being a better rider is not just about yourself, it's also about anticipation, braking/stopping distance, brake modulation.

If a little girl runs out between cars, you are more likely hit her if you have no brakes (given both the brakeless and non-brakeless riders are equally proficient), you are also more likely to hit her at a higher speed because you couldn't slow down fast enough. I can't believe you don't understand this.

^this

:)
Thats for you lpg.

;)

right back at ya man.

straw man argument, i was explicitly talking about mdcc's post.

And i wasn't particularity talking about you,
just that id have liked too see some evidence to support what was said.

X-/

the Only way to settle this LFGSS style is for Ma3k and a braked rider to compete in an alleycat, see who wins,?

puts over £9000 on mack

If the riders with brakes are really interested in minimal stopping distances have they got their bike setup to provide that? Disc brakes, wide slick tyres etc,.

And if not then why not as braking in the shortest time seems to be the point here?

Stopping on a race bike with 23c tyres takes a longer distance than a disc braked MTB with 2.5" tyres so isn't it irresponsible to ride that race bike.

Stopping on a race bike with 23c tyres takes a longer distance than a disc braked MTB with 2.5" tyres so isn't it irresponsible to ride that race bike.

Unsurprisingly, you're wrong. Once the back wheel is off the ground, you can't brake any harder. It's pretty easy to lift the back wheel on a road racing bike with short reach dual pivot brakes, and entirely possible even with old long reach single pivots like Weinmann 730s.

The limit is the tangent of the angle between 1: a line drawn from the front tyre contact point to the centre of gravity and 2: the horizontal, and this angle varies little between common classes of modern solo safety bicycle. Tandems and some recumbents can stop quicker thanks to their length in the first case and low centre of gravity in the second, although tyre friction can become the limiting constraint and it becomes necessary to carefully modulate and balance the front and rear brakes.

i don't know exactly how far stopping distance is increased by, brakeless vs front brake emergency stop, anyone want to do a comparison with me? basically, ride at the same speed then both do emergency stops.

unless you know how much further it takes, mdcc?

really? i thought i heard something about commuter racing being in 2012?

I did apply.. alas, no.

Fixed.

Here's my 2c: I drive around W1 all day, so I get to see a lot of brakeless riders. They are invariably forced to ride slower than people with proper road legal bicycles, while putting in more effort. Occasionally they bump into things like vehicles, people or kerbs because they can't stop fast enough. Running into the back of cars in traffic is funny (to the audience) and mostly harmless. The maximum deceleration of a bicycle with enough front brake on it to lift the back wheel is about 0.6g; the weight distribution makes any more than that tun into an endo. Very ordinary road cars have been capable of about 1.0g for 30 years, and now they can all do it all the time thanks to ABS, EBD, Emergency Brake Assist, and tyres which grip well even on damp tarmac. The pedestrians can't be trusted not to step off the kerb without looking, and the roads are sometimes quite narrow, so if you're following a car which does an emergency stop, your choice is the kerb, the car, or the oncoming traffic. With proper brakes operated by levers on the bit of the handlebar you're actually holding, it's fairly easy to ride in a position where you can stop before you have to choose between these 3 equally unattractive fates. With no brake other than your fixed wheel, you have much less than half the available deceleration and you may have travelled fifteen feet or more before the emergent situation is communicated into the requisite reversal of leg force coincident with the necessary crank angle. Genuinely to ride in traffic with sufficient space to account for these colossal shortcomings would require that you always keep a clear 5v yards behind the vehicle in front, where v is the speed in mph. It is not enough to create this space, you also have to maintain that huge open area by successfully blocking any cars which would overtake to fill up the yawning chasm.

Nothing about having proper working brakes on your bicycle forces you to abandon the situational awareness which you hope (usually wrongly) that you have perfected and think (always wrongly) will invariably save you and others from the perils of reckless drivers and pedestrians. Neither will having brakes diminish the dimensions of your wedding tackle, which seems to be the main fear of the morons who continue to ride dangerous and illegal bicycles, when it comes right down to it.

Agree. Thanks for this.

64" with 28c tyres and 25" wide bars, i can stop or avoid pretty quick. i only ever go fast where i know that i can. I haven't claimed that i can go faster / the same speed brakeless. i know i can stop faster with a brake, but that kinda takes the fun out of it. I only ride brakeless in the dry. I've never hit a ped in 3 years in london. I don't ride like a cunt.

why not just ride with a brake and not use it?

Must be a problem if it rains once you get to your destination, or do you bring the brake lever and calliper with you and fit when need be?...

unless you know how much further it takes, mdcc?

Let's rearrange Newton:
v²=u²+2as

s=(v²-u²)/2a

Stopping distance is inversely proportional to deceleration.

Although the limit on a bicycle with properly functioning brakes is about 0.6g, IIRC when James Annan *et al *were investigating the disc brake wheel ejection issue, it was concluded that typical riders of average aptitude rarely exceeded 0.3g. For the brakeless fixie skidder, the coefficient of kinetic friction is about 0.5 for rubber on asphalt, and the normal load is rather less than half the system mass, giving a deceleration of up to 0.25g. No amount of skill can increase this. So, ignoring the lengthy period of adjustment to the emergency which is necessary for the fixie skidder (waiting for the cranks to come round to a viable angle to initiate the skid), the most skilful exponent of the art can stop in about 120% of the distance of a nodder on a hybrid, and nearer to 240% of the distance of a skilled rider on a braked bicycle. Since the braked bicycle is not sliding, or even close to it, the rider also has much more directional control and can add evasion to deceleration in order to avoid the hazard.