-
chris crash 1, i was trying to find a term that encompasses anti-Muslim sentiment, i dont know of one either.
So not 'Islamist' then !? ;P
chris crash 2 i understand the difference between Arab and Muslim, there are a lot of people who do not make this distinction, ever met a US marine? The term islamist is clearly used by those in power, espicaly in the USA to paint all Arabs, and simalr brown people as an enemy to freedom and the white American way of life
Well we can safely ignore those people within a conversation.
chris crash 3 "nier Look up nier at Dictionary.com
Edited to remove the apparent.
Agreed.
chris crash I think that the usage of the word islamist, and the time of its creation show how it is meant to be used
Can you link or show me anything about the word's use or the time of its creation ? I am still in the dark about the etymology ?
chris crash "it is not a war against Islam, it is a war against the Islamist" to most people that means the guy who cooks different food, prays at a a different church, and has different colour skin. especially the the mobs that attacked Arabs (not Muslims) after 9/11.
Again, we can safely ignore those people within a conversation.
A lot of conflation going on here !
Let me say this:
People like myself who find the ideas of Islam repellant are not racist (not that a distaste for Islam precludes racism).
People like myself who find the ideas of Christianity repellant are not racist (not that a distaste for Christianity precludes racism).
People like myself who find the ideas of Judaism repellant are not racist (not that a distaste for Judaism precludes racism).
People like myself who find the ideas of Hinduism, Sikhism, Zoroastrian, Shintoists etc etc repellant are not racist.
A better term might be anti-theist.
-
i agree with you about religion in general. i will try to find the speech where i first heard the term, and look up its etymology, though it will be quite short.
and i dont think we can ignore the ignorant masses in a conversation about how wards are used to influence the ignorant masses!
-
"History of usage
The term "Islamism" first appeared in eighteenth-century France as a synonym for "Islam". At the turn of the twentieth century, it was being displaced by the latter, and by 1938, when Orientalist scholars completed the Encyclopaedia of Islam, had virtually disappeared from the English language.[54] According to the Oxford English Dictionary, usage of the term "Islamism" dates back to 1747.
It was given its modern connotation by French academia in the late 1970s, thence to be incorporated into the English language again, where it has largely displaced "Islamic fundamentalism" as the preferred term." from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamist#History_of_usage (not the best souce i know)
It does not state that it Replaced Islamic Fundimentalism in the last term of Geroge W. Bush, not the 1970s
the question not asked is why did we sub Islamic fundamentalist for Islamist. i believe the answer is it sounds more like Islam, and to the average person that means Arab, I have known a few people who thought that Islamist was a worshiper of Islam (Muslim was not in their vocabulary), my 10th grade history class was filled with them.
In any conflict situation, you want more people to support you, then your enemy. The easy way to do this is to keep people ignorant of your enemy and create an us vs. them attitude among the populous. In the morden era this may offend sections of the populous (lets call them the educated middle class liberal), if you apse this person by saying you are not against the entire population, but the section that means you harm, ie we are after the Islamist, not Islam (like Hitler being after the Semites and not the Jews), you get bounus points if most of the population cannot understand the difference between the words, and even more points if they sound almost exactly the same.
I have heard US politicians and generals use the phrase Islamist, not Islam often, I cannot recall hearing them say Islamist, not Muslim. their speech writers go over every word of their speeches, and give them a lot of thought, so there has to be a reason they say "Islamist, not Islam" and not the correct "Islamist (or Islamic Fundamentalist) not Muslims". Given that it is in the interest of these politicians, and generals and therefore their speech writers to create an "us vs. them" environment, and incurage ignorance among the populace while not angering the middle class liberals too much, i think it is a fair assumption, and not much of a leap to segust they use the term Islamist, to mean Islam to mean Arab (and genrealy to mean dark skinned).
Just like if Hitler had to avoid the term Jew he would have substituted Semite, and may have tryed to find an even better term like Jewist.
-
*Of course not !
There can be no 'antisemitic' sic for (towards) Muslims as they are not Jews ! I do understand the point you are making here, I am just getting technical on yo' ass ! ;P*
actually your technicality fails mate, the strange part about anti-semitism is that it inherently means both muslims and jews. semitic being a linguistic family, and both arabic and hebrew are semitic (the two closest on that tree actually). so yes, there can acutally be a lot of antisemitism towards muslims. -
didn't know that about those colonial connotations.
It's then quite disturbing that government/academics/analysts use the term "islamist" willy nilly (my dad still calls Muslims "Muselmans"...).
I had previously associated "islamist" simply with the salaafi/takfiri strand of islam i.e. "we should replace national governments and capitalist institutions and replace them with a single world ummah" and so on. Had thought the "ist" at the end was a reference to the idea that there's no separation between church and state...Islamist being to Muslim as Evangelical is to Christian.
-
Increasingly the term to describe political movement of Islam is Islamofascist. It is important to understand that Islam for some individuals is a religion and for others it is a religion and a political movement. I am pretty sure that Islamofascist is even more devisive than Islamist. However because one of the central tenets of political Islam is to silence any kind of criticism or debate as one term comes under attack then people who espouse the western values of freedom of speach will undoubtedly come up with new ways to express the difference between Islam the religion and Islam the political movement. .
-
hassanr *Of course not !
There can be no 'antisemitic' sic for (towards) Muslims as they are not Jews ! I do understand the point you are making here, I am just getting technical on yo' ass ! ;P*
actually your technicality fails mate, the strange part about anti-semitism is that it inherently means both muslims and jews. semitic being a linguistic family, and both arabic and hebrew are semitic (the two closest on that tree actually). so yes, there can acutally be a lot of antisemitism towards muslims.Very true !
I suppose I am employing modern parlance, but technically, yes you are right.
-
-
chris crash i agree with you about religion in general. i will try to find the speech where i first heard the term, and look up its etymology, though it will be quite short.
and i dont think we can ignore the ignorant masses in a conversation about how wards are used to influence the ignorant masses!
I thought we were having a conversation about the etymology of 'Islamist' ? In that respect I don't think we need to factor in the view of racists and 'ignorant masses' (who ever these poor people might be).
-
chris crash "History of usage
The term "Islamism" first appeared in eighteenth-century France as a synonym for "Islam". At the turn of the twentieth century, it was being displaced by the latter, and by 1938, when Orientalist scholars completed the Encyclopaedia of Islam, had virtually disappeared from the English language.[54] According to the Oxford English Dictionary, usage of the term "Islamism" dates back to 1747.
It was given its modern connotation by French academia in the late 1970s, thence to be incorporated into the English language again, where it has largely displaced "Islamic fundamentalism" as the preferred term." from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamist#History_of_usage (not the best souce i know)
By the way, thanks for digging the info out. :)
I couldn't see anything in that link that referred to 'Islamist' as being pejorative ? I do see lots of mentions of 'Islamist' being employed to describe 'Political Islam'.
chris crash
It does not state that it Replaced Islamic Fundimentalism in the last term of Geroge W. Bush, not the 1970sI am not sure what that sentence means ?
chris crash
the question not asked is why did we sub Islamic fundamentalist for Islamist. i believe the answer is it sounds more like Islam, and to the average person that means Arab, I have known a few people who thought that Islamist was a worshiper of Islam (Muslim was not in their vocabulary), my 10th grade history class was filled with them.Count me amongst your 10th grade friends as someone who thinks Islamist refers to a follower of Islam.
chris crash
Just like if Hitler had to avoid the term Jew he would have substituted Semite, and may have tryed to find an even better term like Jewist.Ok.
-
the-smiling-buddha Increasingly the term to describe political movement of Islam is Islamofascist. It is important to understand that Islam for some individuals is a religion and for others it is a religion and a political movement. I am pretty sure that Islamofascist is even more devisive than Islamist. However because one of the central tenets of political Islam is to silence any kind of criticism or debate as one term comes under attack then people who espouse the western values of freedom of speach will undoubtedly come up with new ways to express the difference between Islam the religion and Islam the political movement. .
[size=30]+1
'Islamofascist' works for me when describing fascist political Islam.
'Islamist' works for me when describing political Islam.
'Islamic', 'Muslim' and 'Moslem' works for me when describing the followers of the religion of Islam.
They all have their valid uses although some of us here may disagree about the exact meaning/history of 'Islamist'.
-
hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious or racial group. The term anti-Semitism was coined in 1879 by the German agitator Wilhelm Marr to designate the anti-Jewish campaigns underway in central Europe at that time. Although this term now has wide currency, it is a misnomer, since it implies a discrimination against all Semites.
anti-Semitism. (2008). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved March 8, 2008, from Encyclopædia Britannica Online: http://www.search.eb.com/eb/article-9007807
Wikipedia puts it more succinctly
Antisemitism (alternatively spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism, also known as judeophobia) is prejudice and hostility toward Jews as a religious, racial, or ethnic group. While the term's etymology indicates that antisemitism is directed against all Semitic peoples, since its creation it has been used exclusively to refer to hostility towards Jews.[1][2]
The only reason I mention this is that if you start going around saying that anti-semitism applies to descrimination towards Arabic people in front of Jewish people they are likely to be deeply offended.
-
wheels [quote]asm Top left hand corner, arabic writing? Bit of generalization maybe.
Arabic writing = Arabic writing.
Arabic writing does not mean that the broadcaster/publisher is in any way Muslim.
We may as well say that a still taken from the News at Ten appears to be taken from an Anglican broadcaster because of its use of English in the logo/captioning.[/quote]
That's why I said bit of generalization maybe :)
-
Wheels have you read:
The End Of Fatih Religion, Terror, and The Future Of Reason by Sam Harris?just picked it up at a used book store seems like you would like it.
also i lost track o the debate some where...
-
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYh5NUYCYsM"]YouTube
- Senator Mike Gravel on the Oppressive Nature of Religion[/ame]
wheels
chris_crash
hassanr
Slack
wolfenger
rpm
realenger
the-smiling-buddha
deleted
turpe-
Post a reply
About
Is It True That You Shouldn't Skid Stop with Aerospokes?
Posted by
i can go down to a library and garb some other info for you, but i think we should maybe have this discussion else where, i find it really interesting, and obviously i could be wrong, but i find the process of debate interesting.
im not sure people on the bike forum do.