Knees...

i take those and cod liver oil, seems to help my ageing old joints

obviously some tinkering with your set up is essential to alleviating some of the problems, but if you suffer from gen knee problems the old gluco works a treat.
Cant think of any detrimental side effects to speak of.

You can smell blood from 2k away?

Before I started riding fixed gear I tried leaving my geared bike in the same gear as a means of training. After a week of that my knees ached so bad that I could hardly walk up the stairs. I continued riding in the same way and the same mileage as I did before and toward the end of the second week it started to clear up.

Nowadays on fixed I tend to get the problem only if I do a lot of sprinting. Feels great at the time but I pay for it later. I have been taking cod liver oil for the last couple of years and it has certainly helped to take the edge off.

Pedaling technique helps too. I find that if I focus on a bit more on the pulling up during the pedal stroke rather than pushing down it's nicer on my knees at the end of the day.

hippy Mind if I ask what your problem was and how it got worse?

I say nurse, is that the whole fist!

niggling pain after about 40 miles on left hand side of right knee - feet always go to sleep after about 15 miles. The wedges that were put under the cleat exacerbated the knee pain and the wedges/insole made jack sh88t difference to the feet going to sleep

have tried loads of different shoes as i have reallllly wide feet and northwave seem the best

Any thoughts Doogie Howser MD Hippy? anyone..

redeye do you really think the saddle position can help when so much strain is going through yr kness when slowing down?

no-one's commented on my above coment! do you believe its possible to ride fixed, a lot, with a single or no brake, and still come away with happy knees?

redeye: I ride fixed 40k per day sometimes more, sometimes on weekends, 44/17 and 42/15 with a tendency to sprint and, guess what? I don't have sore knees!
Now adjust your seat like I fscking told you! :P

Wayne, have you thought about blood flow to your feet?

redeye [quote]redeye do you really think the saddle position can help when so much strain is going through yr kness when slowing down?

no-one's commented on my above coment! do you believe its possible to ride fixed, a lot, with a single or no brake, and still come away with happy knees?[/quote]

Yes, if u are fit and healthy and not overweight, and are doing similar amounts of miles over long periods of time then you'll be fine. It's like saying if load boxes onto a truck all day will my arms be fucked forever?... No. Purely repetative acts are not a catalyst for physical problems.... you must have a underlying weakness in the first place.... i.e. your knee/arm/back etc. muscles are weaker, or prone to damage when stressed.... hence why you can damage them after short powerful sprints. At the end of the day muscles are designed to tear and re-build as one repeats acts.

That's why some peoples knees hurt and other peoples knees don't.

yeah, my knees are fine even after long(ish) rides thus far. I had knee problems when younger, and found swimming helps.

wayne_f14 [quote]hippy Mind if I ask what your problem was and how it got worse?

niggling pain after about 40 miles on left hand side of right knee - feet always go to sleep after about 15 miles. The wedges that were put under the cleat exacerbated the knee pain and the wedges/insole made jack sh88t difference to the feet going to sleep
have tried loads of different shoes as i have reallllly wide feet and northwave seem the best
Any thoughts Doogie Howser MD Hippy? anyone..[/quote]

from: http://www.cptips.com/knee.htm (I like this site.. used it a lot years ago)
*Individual Anatomy
(leg length discrepancies; flat feet)
Per Chad Asplund MD "individual cyclist anatomy may contribute to knee and hip pain. Cyclists with leg length discrepancies may develop knee pain as only one side is correctly fitted to the bicycle. This leads to increased stress inside the knee and hip joints on the improperly fitted side. Cyclists with flat feet may be more prone to excessive pronation (internal rotation) of the lower extremity causing greater stress on the IT band at the knee. Orthotics (anatomic shoe inserts crafted by podiatrists) may correct the alignment of the knee and decrease or prevent medial or lateral rotational stress on the connective tissue of the ankle, knee or hip, thus reducing the pain."

Almost everyone has a small leg-length inequality, but a difference of 1/8 inch (3 mm) or so shouldn't affect your cycling. When the difference is greater, however, it can open the door to a host of leg and back problems. The solution involves either cleat repositioning or, when the inequality is 6 mm or more, a shim under the cleat of the short leg.

Here's a quick way to get a ballpark idea as to whether you might have a problem.

* Remove your socks and lie on your back on a firm surface. Straighten your spine as much as possible.
* Have a friend pick up both legs by the heels, shake them gently, stretch them forward and set them down with anklebones (malleoli)touching.
* Have your friend can see how your ankles match. If the bones are offset (AND you're experiencing leg or knee problems) it may be worth getting a more precise exam from an orthopedist or sports medicine practitioner.* 

Feet going to sleep - are your shoes too tight? Socks too thick? I got that a bit when I moved to SPD-SL, carbon soled Shimano fsckers.
Loosen the straps right off, see if it makes any difference. Shimano are supposed to do wide shoes.
I see how most people tighten their shoes up and frankly I'd only do 'em that tight for racing. I tend to run my shoes quite loose.
I don't use orthotics or anyting funky like that. Have you tried totally removing all the inner sole stuff? So it's just foot, thin sock and shoe?

jonaent (Jon) Wayne, have you thought about blood flow to your feet?

[quote]redeye [quote]redeye do you really think the saddle position can help when so much strain is going through yr kness when slowing down?

no-one's commented on my above coment! do you believe its possible to ride fixed, a lot, with a single or no brake, and still come away with happy knees?[/quote]

Yes, if u are fit and healthy and not overweight, and are doing similar amounts of miles over long periods of time then you'll be fine. It's like saying if load boxes onto a truck all day will my arms be fucked forever?... No. Purely repetative acts are not a catalyst for physical problems.... you must have a underlying weakness in the first place.... i.e. your knee/arm/back etc. muscles are weaker, or prone to damage when stressed.... hence why you can damage them after short powerful sprints. At the end of the day muscles are designed to tear and re-build as one repeats acts.

That's why some peoples knees hurt and other peoples knees don't.[/quote]

But thats just it, your knees arent muscle, they're bone and cartilage, that don't repair like muscle. my point was more towards that twice as much force, stress is going through yr knees than with a bike with a freewheel, isn't this bound to fu¢k them up more, or could it be avoided.

I find comments like hippys interesting, maybe it is possible!

As a follow up, i've been playing around with the saddle position this morning, sitting on the bike stationary, with the cranks horizontal, when i aply downwards presure, i can feel the "ache" in my knees (above and behind the kneecap), when I slide back on the saddle, and do the same, it relieves it. moved the saddle back a couple of cm, and it feels so much more comfortable with power/pressure applied.

i'll see how i get on later. . .

I think the best thing is - check your saddle, cleats, and gearing, and if it still hurts, go see a doctor and get a referral to a physio who can give you decent advice!

Make that a sports physio! Preferably one with knowledge/interest in cycling. Normal ones treating footballers wont cut it.

patellar tendonitis:

pain in the: causes:

front of knee seat too low (raise seat)
(anterior) seat too forward (move seat back) climbing too much (reduce climbing) big gears, low r.p.m. (spin more)

                    cranks too long (shorten cranks)
                    poor bike fit.

inside of knee
(medial) cleats- toes point out (modify seat position--->toe in. consider floating pedals.)

                    floating pedals (limit float to 5 degrees)
                    exiting clipless pedals (lower tension)
                                      feet too far apart (modify cleat position- closer.  shorten bottom bracket axle.  use cranks with less offset).   

outside of knee cleats- toes point out (modify cleat-->toe out. consider floating pedals. )
(lateral) floating pedals (limit float to 5 degrees)

                    feet too close (modify cleat position-->apart.  longer bottom bracket axle.  use cranks with more offset.  shim pedal on crank 2 mm.)

back of knee saddle too high (lower saddle)
(posterior) saddle too far back (move saddle forward)

                    floating pedals (limit float to 5 degrees)

*significant warmth/redness may indicate infection and requires prompt medical attention)

• in most cases, rest, ice, compression, elevation of the ailing bits are helpful.
  
  
  

chrondomalacia: a grating sensation at the front of the knee, pain going down stairs, and a general ache, stiffness after prolonged seating are frequent features.
caused by excessive force pushing the kneecap onto the surface of the femur (thighbone) causing excessive stress (called loading or shearing force) on the underside of the kneecap
and may result in it's surface becoming roughened. roughening of the kneecap can also be caused will posture imbalance, or anything that causes the kneecap to stray from it's ideal path.
a relative weakness of the inside or medial quadriceps muscles is often responsible. a wide pelvis or knock knees may make the condition more likely.

bicycling done correctly often helps this problem.
make sure knee is not bent more than 25 degrees from horizontal when your foot is at the bottom of your stroke
move seat back/ sit farther back in the saddle.
spin more. maintain a cadence of 85 rpm or more. avoid hills, especially long climbs. stand more when climbing avoid long cranks.
if pain is due to a tracking problem, rather than a load problem, pedals allowing some free rotation may help.
avoid squatting, kneeling, exercises that bend the knee more than 90 degrees. going walking/running down stairs/hills, or doing anything that increases load/shearing force of the patella on the femur.
strengthening medial quadriceps may help.

this has been an interesting thread to read...I have been riding fixed for a year and a few months, and I have noticed increased stress in my knees which I have found a little worrying...I run what I guess is a fairly high gear (77 inches) and am thinking of going a little lower...I don't really experience pain but after hard rides, I can feel that my knees are stressed out...will bear your points in mind...nice one...

Good thread and good info.

Was on my fixed last week and did a bit too much, knees got very sore in days after and I haven't been on since as a result. Have had a increasing problem with left knee anyway when running and I guess cycling after years not doing it has had a bad effect! Going to lower my gear as it's a bit too high and take things easy till my legs build up again.

Will try the seat fix as mentioned above as maybe it's too low and far forward?

Cheers all!

I can't remember where i read it, but today i felt a slight twinge in my knees, and looked down to see a bow-legged position, which i promptly changed to cycling with my legs as close to the top--tube as possible. The next 25 miles were fine.
So maybe the way in which you ride might be changed.
I don't know though, and one problem with joints (esp. knees) is that everyone's reaction is different.

Saddle height sorted me out, i was about 1/4 inch to0 low! Have found it better to be the other way on fixed....slightly high....as BB is higher than my roadie bike. Stretch your knees - kneel down with your bum on your heals then slowly move your heals apart....allowing your bum to drop towards the floor....if it starts to hurt, stop & put a small cushion on the floor as a prop, you might (will) have tight knees (common to cyclists). Sit on this cushion, kinda between your heals for a few minutes...dont get too uncomfortable!

kipsy Saddle height sorted me out, i was about 1/4 inch to0 low! Have found it better to be the other way on fixed....slightly high....as BB is higher than my roadie bike. Stretch your knees - kneel down with your bum on your heals then slowly move your heals apart....allowing your bum to drop towards the floor....if it starts to hurt, stop & put a small cushion on the floor as a prop, you might (will) have tight knees (common to cyclists). Sit on this cushion, kinda between your heals for a few minutes...dont get too uncomfortable!

that makes sense, too. if you're bending your knees more than necessary, and possibly bowing them out b/c you don't have enough space to stretch them, well, there you go.

Knee pain for newbie fixed riders is most often caused by having the sadlle too high, a lot of fixed fans like to emulate what they perceive as a track position, High saddle and long reach to bars.....in reality when you go to watch six day races the pros will have much more relaxed positions and generally have their saddles lower than they would on a road bike as it allows you to spin easier and is softer on the knees..35 miles on your low gear really isn't that far so I'm guessing your saddle is too high..

Flattening your saddle (if it is pointing down) and pushing it back will actually increase the distance from your pedal to your arse...effectively raising your saddle height...so although sensible suggestions could make it worse....I would do those things and lower the saddle at least 5cm....see how you get on and then raise it in half cm increments 'til you get it just sweet.

After reading this thread.... I seem to have developed a pain in my right knee..... I just got my new Mercian and when I put it together went out on a raz around town.... I realised that my seat felt too low (in comparison to my old road conversion), so I kept rising it up until it was comfortable (I put this down to raised BB on a track frame).... now I like to be high up and upright on the bike so I had the seat quite far forwards (Dale even noted this when he got on it)....

I also was riding a slightly higher gear of 48:18 instead of 48:20 and skidding all over the place getting into riding a track frame in town...

Anyway, my Knee feels very strange.... stiff and cracks when I move it if I haven't moved it for a while and feels a bit like there is liquid under it(??) If I press the top right of my knee (As I look down at it, top left if u look at it from the front) it hurts a bit like a bruise feeling. There is no swelling.

I rested it at the weekend, but it didn't make much difference. This morning it was impossible to ride on it, but coming home it was ok and didn't hurt too much with pressure.... It seems to be better through moving it, as I said it feels stiff....

Anyone have similar experience of changing bike or gear-ratio? Any ideas whether I should be resting it or excercising it? Any help would be great.... Do u think I should put a free-wheel on?

sounds scary. with me, i sometimes get a sore-feeling, but it's not painful enough to make me stop riding or anything...
i think you can put on an easier gear for a week and see how it goes, yeah?

I'll add that it doesn't hurt at all to walk on, just when it's at an angle past 90, and when I pull up when clipped into pedals.... It's more of a niggle rather than a shooting pain.... uncomfortable really.

Try RICE. It really works. Rest, Ice, Compress, Elevate. Ice (eg. bag of frozen peas) should be wrapped in a thin tea towel, and be just short of burning your skin :O 20mins maximum. Repeat at least twice a day.

And ride conservatively on the new setup for a bit (boring, yes).