Wheelbuilding / Wheel Building / Wheel build help

Measure the pcd but I think your best bet is a novatec d712 hub and new spokes.

You'd think that people would be giving away UST lightweight 26" cross country wheelsets, and I could just bin the rear, ditch the front and upgrade for cheaps, but no, and I think you are probably right in that there's no easy solution so a new hub + spokes it probably is.

maths proves that the spokes have almost no influence

Please show your working.

Tx :)

Trying to see if I can get a deal in chain reaction...its one of my local shops (support your lbs) but they only sell mavic rims now :/

Are mavic cxp33 and DT Swiss comp with your hub option (which I need to buy elsewhere) an option?

They have no kinlin and spokes you mentioned.

with your hub option

This is @thecycleclinic 's hub recommendation, I think it's safe to say he hasn't bothered to read your original post:

DT Comps are fine, CXP33s are strong enough but still too narrow. A719 is slightly cheaper and more suitable.

565 grams (700C). I haven't wrecked my open sports or ambrosio balance yet ;)
(le manfriend swears by the predecessor of that rim btw)

I am running 23 Panaracer Pasela on Mr Balk and don't feel discomfort. That's on Ambrosio Balance internal width 14. So just wondering, what benefits does it bring to go wider?

(I can't run more than 25 on the frame as previously mentioned...and ran 25 r/23f in winter and again no bother. Bear in mind I cycle steel which always gives a tiny bit)

Ps cycleclinic is a shop so it's nice of him/her to spend time here helping for free.

So just wondering, what benefits does it bring to go wider?

Lower rolling resistance, better handling, more ride comfort, reduced risk of snake bite. Apart from that, no benefits¹ :-)

¹ Actually, when @thecycleclinic shows us his mathematical model of the wheel, there will be a term in there relating to the I of the rim cross section about a radial axis , and wider rims provide a benefit there which manifests itself in greater axial stiffness of the finished wheel.

The fact that he/she is a shop doesn't mean he/she has a clue what he/she is talking about.

cycleclinic is a shop so it's nice of him/her to spend time here helping for free

A shop which comes up very high in the results on google if you search for his rim recommendation :-)

If you go with the Kinlin XC279, and there's no reason why you shouldn't, you can get it for less from Superstar where they call it Pave28

Yep I saw that...getting rims in UK wide is next on list if CRC can't do me a spoke deal, packs of 18 are WAAAY to expensive.

OK I shall have a look...it's tricky to get Kinlin under Kinlin...so Pave28 it may be.

But I am trying to spend local if that costs a little more, so be it. So that widens it to cycleclinic and others if they sell rims/spokes.

Now I am assuming somebody that builds wheels for a living knows more than me on what works and doesn't. I live a simple life you know :p

for radial lacing

radial wheel stiffness is = rim stiffness/(1+(rim stiffness/spoke stiffness)) This comes from the way the stiffnesses add
1/wheel stiffness = 1/rim stiffness + 1/spoke stiffness
If you do the algebra it works out. Spoke stiffness much higher than that of the rim stiffness at least so the bottom term tends to one (this is an edit) hence spoke stiffness is not a major contributing factor to radial stiffness although it will have an impact.

Radial stiffness that Halo aero range 32H with rev spokes is going to be pretty high and I doubt it would be higher with 24 comp spokes as you suggested.

This paper make interesting reading if you can follow the maths. http://opus.bath.ac.uk/1418/1/Vogwell_P
Putting actual numbers into the maths though is hard as there are few about which is a shame.

The University of Bath paper by Minguez and Vogwell contains a theoretical study of radial wheel stiffness which supports the proposition that rim stiffness rather than spoke stiffness will be the determining factor in establishing overall radial wheel stiffness.

That the paper I have just quoted!

The mavic CXP33 is a bit heavy but that is not the issue but it is narrow. You will enjoy riding a wider rim like the Kinlin XC-279 or the new XR22T (superstar sell these but call them something else). Your LBS should be able to get the kinlin if they have a whiskers account.

The DT Swiss r460 is another option for a wide medium depth rims. All these rims are under £40 but wide and lighter than the mavic.

Nothing wrong with DT comps but sapim race are normally cheaper.

I have not searched google for that rim so no idea where I would come up. It is one I hardly ever get asked to use it not very popular. I suggested it because it is wide, stiff and cheap no other reason. Superstar probably do them cheaper than I can anyway.

So it is. Great minds think alike. Even if mine hasn't got the hang of reading all the way to the end of a post yet.

Of course, the paper only deals with radial stiffness and not lateral stiffness, and while lateral stiffness is undoubtedly A Good Thing, it's debatable whether radial stiffness is. If you had a wheel which was laterally stiff and radially relatively unstiff then you'd have the utopia of all frame designers combining the hallowed lateral stiffness and vertical compliance.

This paper suggests (Fig. 6 for example) that spoke diameter (and so spoke stiffness) has a significant impact on lateral stiffness, which in my view is more important than radial stiffness anyway.

ChainReaction, the LBS (originally from NI) sells few rims these days, Mavic and a few others, hence the CXP33 for trying to get something local (support the LBS) I'll see what they say. Perhaps they can order Kinlin in.

I've only ever used an OpenSport which was just fine after a few months on crappy roads built within about 1mm, not out of true at all. But near the seam on the rim it was always a bit out, so the metal wasn't perfect there.

Your wheels/rims look great, just out of my budget unfortunately.

Tx for all the tips :)

http://www.superstarcomponents.com/en/arc31-ultrawide-aero-rim.htm ow these are nice beasts too, supposedly Kinlin XR31T

But perhaps a bit "duur" for winter, as Tester rightly points out, winter eats rims

EDIT, found a deal on 28H H-son Archetypes on Evilbay. Now for spokz and hubs. PS SJS cycles does a multipack of double butted spokes that are supposedly good. £30 for 144 spokes! Alas, silver only.

Lateral stiffness is very important by my own experience is while spoke diameter and count are important in wheel for lateral stiffness if you pick a wide medium depth stiff rim and a hub with good bracing angles the changing spoke count and spoke diameter makes little practical difference as the wheel is simply stiff.

For a wheel with an Open Pro rim then spoke gauge and spoke count makes the difference between a wheel that last and one that doesn't.

What would you advice on an H-son 28H archetype? (73ish kg with backpack and all...reasonably shitey roads)
Going to be track high-flange (not dished and slightly shorter spokes cos hi-flange)

DT swiss comps/sapim race, or better going with good aule straight gauge?

Someone lend @JWestland a wheel already.

I followed the tester-approved approach and used DT Alpine IIIs on my fixed road bike's new wheels (also 28h Archetypes) and so far they've been bullet-proof. I'm pretty sure that comps/race would have been equally satisfactory, however, but I'd never used Alpine IIIs before so the novelty value (and the fact that the weight difference wasn't that much) won in the end.

sapim race or comps will work fine. Alpine III are fine spokes but I am not sure the extra expense is warranted as 73kg is not alot and a fixed wheel, wheel is very stiff. Also the alpine III spokes is only available from madison in silver.

I tend to use triple butted spokes on higher spoke count wheels that are taking a significant load. 73 kg is not a significant load for a spoked wheel.

the alpine III spokes is only available from madison in silver

We buy our DT spokes from Rosebikes, they have all the lengths in all the colours. Yes, they're overkill for most purposes, but only 5p each over Comps

better going with good aule straight gauge?

It's never better to use plain gauge spokes. If your calculations lead you to conclude that you need plain gauge to achieve sufficient axial stiffness, you're using too few spokes.

Axial stiffness calculator? I'm intrigued :)