Wheelbuilding / Wheel Building / Wheel build help

hmm... a readout of 22 on the meter. revs are a 1.5mm ø. I think that side avaraged around 20 readout.
when squeezed they feel about as tight as 110kgf competitions...

22 on the Park meter scale for Revs is 157 kgf. So, yeah, that's rather high. The '22' reading is a measure of deflection, and yes, for a 1.8mm spoke like the Comps that same deflection would be around 110 kgf.

Gah, with the Park Tool TM-1 I have, I have to take a few measurements and average them out, as it can be out by as much as 10-20kgf!

Will soon be replacing it with a much more accurate Jobst Brandt style version which is currently being fabricated, but hopefully turn up by next week. :D

The Park one should be consistent, it's just not hyper-accurate.

Done a bit of searching/reading but just want to check, boiled linseed oil e.g. http://www.diy.com/nav/decor/paint-woodcare/general-wood-care/wood_oils/B-and-Q-Boiled-Linseed-Oil-500ml-9253248 is fine for spoke prep? I don't need to get the super pricey 'raw' stuff...

Done a bit of searching/reading but just want to check, boiled linseed oil e.g. http://www.diy.com/nav/decor/paint-woodcare/general-wood-care/wood_oils/B-and-Q-Boiled-Linseed-Oil-500ml-9253248 is fine for spoke prep? I don't need to get the super pricey 'raw' stuff...

No need for the pricey stuff - regular boiled linseed oil is what you want.

Perfect, thanks! Picked some up tonight, going to try and build my first wheels this weekend, new polo front and new 29er front too.

Again, IIRC the Jobst Brandt Retrogrouch™ wisdom is that spoke breakages are almost always fatigue failures due to too many stress cycles. Spoke tension doesn't affect how many stress cycles the spoke undergoes or how many it can withstand before failing (I think). His recommendation is to keep tensioning the spokes until stress-relieving them puts the rim out of true, then backing them off a touch, re-truing, and stress relieving them again. If they stay true that time then they're good to go, basically. I don't think he made different recommendations for different wheel uses.

It's a bit old school. When he wrote the book rims were a lot "softer" meaning you didn't need a lot of tension to get them out of shape... if you try a Wolber Profil or an Ambrosio Elite, you will see that as you go over 120 KgF, you end up with a saddle shaped rim.
Modern rims are a hell of a lot stiffer and you need some serious tension to get them out of shape. i don't think you can get a Velocity Deep V out of shape at all. But the local stress experienced by the holes is still the same, so chances are your over-tensioned rim will stay true but it will crack at the holes pretty quickly.
The answer is simple, get a tension gauge, even the cheap Park Tool one is very good and although the calibration is not 100% accurate, it's not far off.
I still use it for those spokes which are not featured in other calibration charts (essentially anything which is not DT or Sapim)

Are the NDS spokes of a disc braked hub more likely to snap from fatigue or lose tension due to the forces of braking being applied at the hub rather than the rim?

I'm being driven mad by my rear wheel Novatec road disc hub, ACI spokes and a 32H 29er Alex rim which constantly has spoke losing tension and snapping despite use of tension gauge, linseed, proper stress relief etc. in building.

Are the NDS spokes of a disc braked hub more likely to snap from fatigue or lose tension due to the forces of braking being applied at the hub rather than the rim?

I'm being driven mad by my rear wheel Novatec road disc hub, ACI spokes and a 32H 29er Alex rim which constantly has spoke losing tension and snapping despite use of tension gauge, linseed, proper stress relief etc. in building.

The Novatec D 712 SB rear (if that's the one you mean) has a decent tension distribution. For Alpina DB I build them at 22-23 on the Drive side (Park tool gauge) and that comes at 17-18 on the non drive side, which is a high enough tension to prevent them from coming loose. Don't normally use threadlock compounds on these, but if you need, I would recommend Loctite 222 (the purple one) as a spoke prep. or Loctite 241 if you want to use it on the nipples after the build. Some use lineseed oil, I have never tried it, is seems to get pretty hard when I use it on wood

Hello all,
I'm building my new bicycle Pelizzoli Leggenda FOR3,
And can't decide between a few wheel building options.
My understanding is very basic so I'll appreciate your input and advice.
The Bicycle is Fixed Gear
Front 28 Radial
Back 32 3 Cross
I want to build it on Mavic Open Pro Rims
No idea what Spokes or nipples.
And I'm debating between:
Phil Wood Hubs (Slr or not)
White Industries
Campagnolo Record Pista
What do you think?

There is a wheel building thread. It might help.

http://www.lfgss.com/thread951-29.html

Be careful with track hubs, some are not protected at all against the weather. If you get Dura Ace, they come with some extra seals to use on roads... otherwise the cheap and Cheerful Novatec are really good and last a long time with no maintenance.
So, for something bling I'd get Dura Ace 7600. For spokes you can use Sapim Race/DT comp at the rear and Sapim laser/DT revs at the front... or the cheaper ACi DB front and rear

Thanks for the answer,
You don't think that the white industries or phil wood are sealed bearings?
I know that the Campag is not, but I thought that on a more technically advanced hub it might be.

Thanks for the answer,
You don't think that the white industries or phil wood are sealed bearings?
I know that the Campag is not, but I thought that on a more technically advanced hub it might be.

Possibly, I have no idea to be honest, I have not used them. Unless you are sentimentally attached to those brands or you like the logo, I don't think you can buy better track hubs than the Dura Ace though.
I wouldn't say that Phil hubs are technologically advanced either... white industries is a bit like the British Royce, although I think Cliff builds better hubs

You don't think that the white industries or phil wood are sealed bearings?

Both use rubber seals just the same as the generic industrial 6000-2RS bearings in Novateccs. Bearing in mind that Planet X are dumping their remaining stock of Novatec at £34 a pair, it's hard to see why anybody would buy anything else. No 28H, but then 28 is a weird drilling anyway, no real point to it as it's not different enough from 32H to make any meaningful difference. If you're not racing, 32H f&r is fine, and if you are then you'll want deeper rims, whereupon 24H both ends will be enough for all but the biggest riders.

Both use rubber seals just the same as the generic industrial 6000-2RS bearings in Novateccs. Bearing in mind that Planet X are dumping their remaining stock of Novatec at £34 a pair, it's hard to see why anybody would buy anything else. No 28H, but then 28 is a weird drilling anyway, no real point to it as it's not different enough from 32H to make any meaningful difference. If you're not racing, 32H f&r is fine, and if you are then you'll want deeper rims, whereupon 24H both ends will be enough for all but the biggest riders.

That's the sad truth... I really don't think spending a lot of money in fixed hubs will get you anything better than the Novatec/Planet X. There is virtually no technology in a fixed hub... it's just about good machining and Taiwanese machining is just as good as American one. Cup/cone bearings as in the Dura Ace will have a bit less drag if set correctly, but you are talking small fractions of a second over over 1 mile.
The silver Novatec even look quite nice

Cup/cone bearings as in the Dura Ace will have a bit less drag if set correctly, but you are talking small fractions of a second over over 1 mile

You can get pretty much the same benefit by swapping the original bearings in Novatecs for SKF E2, under £15 for a pair of hubs

Agree about less drag with a cup and cone system. I have On-One track hubs the bearings survived 4000 miles ridden every day in all and any weather. Changed to FAG bearings in January - a vast improvement bearing wise.

At the price I paid, ca £20, you can't go wrong.

^^ those are the SKF version of the bearings I used.

Did the FAG ones have shields instead of rubber seals? That's the source of most of the reduction in bearing drag. The plastic cages in place of the usual steel ones are the other difference.

For outdoor use, stick to rubber sealed versions, in which case FAG are just as good as SKF.

Sorry my mistake, I purchased -2RS. I thought about metal ones but the UK weather didn't make that thought last long.

Cup/cone bearings as in the Dura Ace will have a bit less drag if set correctly, but you are talking small fractions of a second over over 1 mile.

The other factor is this; will you notice it?

There are lots of things the rider won't notice which the timekeeper can measure. Each second in a 25 mile TT at middlemarker pace is 0.03% change in speed, far below the measuring ability of any power meter, let alone the much less sensitive seat-of-the-pants. Track sprints can be won or lost by a tyre's width, which is 0.01% of the timed distance.

The other factor is this; will you notice it?

Yeah, because Tester will point it out on a public forum. Then where does that leave you?