Lance Armstrong... greatest doper there was or ever will be

Hm ... Voigt has surely got it wrong here, seeing as the case is still in full swing and a lot of loose ends remain:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/voigt-armstrong-has-been-punished-enough

I really like Jens Voigt but I hate it when cyclist have this soft attitude towards doping / dopers. Especially Armstrong.

"Hm... Voigt has surely got it wrong here, seeing as the case is still in full swing and a lot of loose ends remain:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/voigt-armstrong-has-been-punished-enough..."

I agree Voigt has got it wrong. However, reading between the lines I think he's just feed up with the whole thing and want to move on.

I think he's just feed up with the whole thing and want to retire before his own past is examined too closely.

Seems likely.

Voigt's problem seems to be that he's too amiable. He's probably the nicest bloke in pro cycling but not a lot of people are going to have much sympathy for his views on this one.

^ but yeah, I did have that same uncomfortable thought while reading the article

There is a 99.99 percent probability that Voigt has been on the peds during his career. And you could probably add a couple of 9s to the end of that.

So, do we need a "Jens Voigt... Second greatest doper here was or ever will be" thread?

Na, Jens is awesome

I think so...

So, do we need a "Jens Voigt... Second greatest doper here was or ever will be" thread?

No, he's nowhere near the top of the league table.

List?

Indurain for 2nd place?

http://www.cyclismas.com/2013/01/armstrongs-2009-comeback-blood/

Comeback 2.0-Doped! From cyclismas.

I hadn't realised how cross I was about this whole thing until I sat down to write a short blog about it, and ended up writing 1000+ words.

I've always considered that 3 weeks riding an average of 150km a day up and down fuck off mountains just not humanly possible on "bread and water" alone, even given a certain amount of freak natural ability. Pro cyclist have doped since day one.

Seriously, if what you acutally mean is 'I can't ride for 3 weeks...' you need to person up. I am a cyclist of extremely mediocre talents, and I managed to ride from London to Basel in 5 days with luggage. I have met french cyclo-touristes well into their fifties, sixties & seventies who have done several of the diagonals (e.g. Menton - Brest) non-stop, and there's a AUKer who has done the Great Triangle (2100 MILES) in 9 days and 50 mins.

Pro road racing is much, much more sane than it was in the early days. They no longer have to ride 500k on unmade roads on bikes that weigh 20kgs and have two gears. There's also an argument that people are a lot softer now than they were then. Anyone that doubts that should read an account of Eugene Christophe's Milan - San Remo win.

Shit, people make a big fuss about road races that use unmade roads in the mountains. It's not so long ago that the majority of the mountain roads were unmade, and Hainault famously went off the side of a hill in the 1977 Dauphine on an unmade road.

so if its not possible to ride a Grand Tour without drugs, are you saying David Moncoutie took drugs, while winning 4 KOM in the Vuelta, despite all pro riders saying he is clean.

+1

Of course & you are entitled to your opinion. Charly Mottet one of the great French riders of the 80"s & early 90"s was famous for being clean. He has quite an impressive Palmares showing you can do it clean.

+1 - a big shout to Monsieur Mottet, one of the classiest riders EVER. For a master-class in descending watch his [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PP9ZSQVOyk"]1988
Lombardy win[/ame].

Are you not calling Beryl Burton a road cyclist, then? But yes, Ms Cooke and Ms Burton, whatever we call them.

Sorry, Beryl's palmares do not compare, speculation about what she might have won had there been more races for her to win is just speculation.

Come on guys, aren't you being a little too hard on the man? At least he's finally coming clean, and I for one think we should respect him for that.

He hasn't come clean. He hasn't told all about the organisation of the doping, and not many people believe his claim to have been clean during his 2008 comeback (his 2nd, 3rd or 4th comeback, depending on how you are counting).

And that's a load of cash for cancer regardless... still feel for the young riders who got binned for saying no.

Whether he has also done good things is irrelevant. He cheated (including cheating other people of winnings, employment etc), perjured, lied, bullied, threatened, blackmailed, conspired in illegality (doping was a crime in France at the time he was doing it).

Hm ... Voigt has surely got it wrong here, seeing as the case is still in full swing and a lot of loose ends remain

Jens is wrong, but lots of people in pro-cycling have the same attitude. They want the whole mess to go away so they can get on with their jobs. I understand why they feel that, and I sympathise, but the sporting public are now COMPLETELY disillusioned with mens pro cycling, and will take a long, long time to have their confidence restored. Everyone, the administrators, race organisers, team managers, sponsors, sycophantic 'journalists' (yes, Phil & Paul, I mean you) have conspired in this, or can be considered to have conspired, seeing as they were silent whilst all this was going on, so they need to speak up now, and tell us what they knew & when, or they won't be trusted ever again.

Indurain for 2nd place?

Look again at the 1996 Hautacam stage. Everyone in the leading group has been busted, or tainted by association. Except the Big Mig. Mig wasn't as obnoxious as Lance, he just won a lot of Grand Tours without feeling the need to grind everyone else into the dust, but he was unquestionably doped. Just because he's a humble man, and everyone likes him, doesn't mean he wasn't doping.

Maybe big mig needed to dope less because he was so big.

Indurain's performances were more plausible than Lance's because his VO2 max was enormous, but the idea that he could outclimb guys like LeMond, Millar, Hampsten, Claveyrolat, Mottet, Delgado was not. As we all should have realised at the time.

Seems like you've got it all covered; if only UCI and WADA had your insight.

"Come on guys, aren't you being a little too hard on the man? At least he's finally coming clean, and I for one think we should respect him for that."

This by the way, was meant as utter and complete sarcasm, but you already know that.

I think we have the forum t-shirt;
Scary,
Scarier,
Scariest of all.

This by the way, was meant as utter and complete sarcasm, but you already know that.

Ha! I totally missed that. I was in rant-tunnel mode. :-)

Easy to miss I guess,unless you read all my postings in this thread in context, which is a big ask ;-)

Indurain's performances were more plausible than Lance's because his VO2 max was enormous, but the idea that he could outclimb guys like LeMond, Millar, Hampsten, Claveyrolat, Mottet, Delgado was not. As we all should have realised at the time.
I always remember went Bob Millar was unlucky not to win @ isola 2000 in the 93 Tour, after leading over the Col de Bonette etc. At the end former teamate Allan Pipier said to Rob, "great ride mate, if it wasn"t for Indurian you would"ve won" Millar "well what can you do Indurain rode" In other words put the hammer down. But how the fuck does a 6ft 2in 80kg approx rider blow away a pure climber 5ft 6in 60kg. Its gotta be juice. ps regarding Mottet he won 2 stages in a row in 91 Tour the second a mountain stage, on bread & water. Pure heroic stuff.

I always remember went Bob Millar was unlucky not to win @ isola 2000 in the 93 Tour, after leading over the Col de Bonette etc. At the end former teamate Allan Pipier said to Rob, "great ride mate, if it wasn"t for Indurian you would"ve won" Millar "well what can you do Indurain rode" In other words put the hammer down. But how the fuck does a 6ft 2in 80kg approx rider blow away a pure climber 5ft 6in 60kg. Its gotta be juice. ps regarding Mottet he won 2 stages in a row in 91 Tour the second a mountain stage, on bread & water. Pure heroic stuff.

Yeah, I treasure Millar's comment about blowing his brains out at the top of the Bonnette.

I guess I will always regard the guys from that era (late 80s) as giants, because that was my introduction to the sport, but another great memory is of Mottet, Delgado & Millar out on the attack to Superbagneres in '89, Mottet & Delgado trying to take time from Fignon, LeMond and the other favourites, Millar going for the stage win... mayhem behind... attacks & counter-attacks...

Easy to miss I guess,unless you read all my postings in this thread in context, which is a big ask ;-)

Read other people's posts on this forum? Do people still do that? :-)

I'm a good climber by anyone's standard and insanely good for my size... We might be few and far between, but it's a complete myth that "normal" size guys per definition can't climb.

Yeah, I treasure Millar's comment about blowing his brains out at the top of the Bonnette.

I guess I will always regard the guys from that era (late 80s) as giants, because that was my introduction to the sport, but another great memory is of Mottet, Delgado & Millar out on the attack to Superbagneres in '89, Mottet & Delgado trying to take time from Fignon, LeMond and the other favourites, Millar going for the stage win... mayhem behind... attacks & counter-attacks...
Suberbagneres was a monster stage 4 Cols, Millar 1st over every one! Those great riders are the reason, i love steel bikes, i could never imagine having a "modern" bike. One of my earliest memories is Jean Francois Bernard winning the mountian time trial on the Ventoux. It was a better sport then, far more gunslingers..

"Read other people's posts on this forum? Do people still do that? :-)"

Naaaa, not me.

*I confess thread