Weight Cheapie (Chinese crabon fun)

off topic @ dan Canyon was founded in 2002. But if you measure the technical competence based on the staff then they certainly have years of experience as they secured some well respected frame designers at start up

yes I'm aware of that - but as you say they pinched a bunch of people, plus they don't seem to have had any problems winning races in their short history. I was really making a larger 'big manufacturers' point.