European Qualifier Discussion - 2013 and onwards

This ^

Although I suggested that the top three teams from the NS should auto qualify (uk wide), I think this needs to be arranged before the NS starts... Or at least before it ends...

I think, while they completely deserve it, we can't really give a spot away for winning the London league. While for now, and the next few years, the best London team would almost certainly qualify, that might change, and it's a bad precedent to set. But the UK Champs (which Cosmic are as well), and NS champs deserve a spot for sure.

That makes more sense, although it would have to be done as a future thing really.

i thought nice touch won NS?

Yeah, for sure, but it's not too late for the NS this year, and for the UK Champs this year.

This is something the UKHBPA could decide now, for next years Euros.

Good point Luca...

This ^

#notthatisuggesredthisagesago

Nb, auto qualifying the top three UK+ire NS teams would dramatically effect the accuracy of the qualies, might even make it manageable to play in one day.

This:

Nb, auto qualifying the top three UK+ire NS teams would dramatically effect the accuracy of the qualies, might even make it manageable to play in one day.

Plenty of example in other sports.

Totally support the winners and runners up from a National Series ought to have demonstrably earnt automatic slots - three (from the current ten) is stretching it I think (as it doesn't represent current form, being based on previous years performance), although maybe the next level UK senior tournament could also offer a place to the highest performing eligible UK team (that hasn't already got an automatic slot from the NS) - recent example would be the highest eligible finisher from LO 2011.

Where it gets messy is when a team changes more than 2/3rds of its make up over the winter. There would need to be a clear ruling in advance eg. that if an eligible team claiming/qualifying an automatic qualification spot cannot fulfil the 2/3rds criteria once the internal UK qualification event is announced, then that automatic spot is waived and is put back into the internal qualification event.

As was said in last year's NS review, this would dramatically enhance the credibility and standing of our NS, by linking it to such a qualification process.

So this is no longer a formality for cosmic given that snoops can't play and subs are thin on the ground.

If cosmic don't represent at the euros there is something really wrong with this whole process.

I know this will be really controversial but I think cosmic should get a bye as they won the London league.

If I get to run the league again this will be part of the proposal. Can someone bring this to the attention of whoever needs to know about it?

I don't agree with this. Firstly, London doesn't get to decide who, from UK & Ireland, gets to go to the Euros. Secondly, nothing in sport is ever a formality, or at least, it shouldn't be, otherwise it ceases to be interesting to play & watch. Thirdly, Cosmic, with or without a sub, should be good enough to qualify from the UKI tournament. If the UK scene isn't big & strong enough to supply a sub for Cosmic for this tournament, then we aren't good enough to have 10 spots in Euros.

As the national governing body, UKHBPA can obviously allocate spots as they see fit (if they want to use NS rankings then great). However, they won't be able to allocate anything without a proper structure (IE constitution) in place. Then, if allocating UK spots for international tournaments were to be part of their remit, they could start doing things like those suggested above.

Ok.

What if a team can't make it to enough NS events to qualify (financial, or restrictions on holiday time)?
What if teams resort back to their dynamic line-up nature, would you propose qualifying the individuals instead, as in NA?
What if the Euros organiser distributes spots differently next year (to cities/regions/etc)?

My personal view is that it's more likely that most teams would be able to make it to a qualifying event (that can potentially use the same court size/rules/whatever as the Euros itself) than several NS events. The London League is a whole different kettle of fish and seems largely irrelevant for UK (& I, sigh) Euros qualification.

Cosmic, with or without a sub, should be good enough to qualify from the UKI tournament.

This... a team is only as good as it's parts, subbing out one part is a similar precedent to taking a sub (2 of 3 ruling) for the tournament itself, I don't see the problem, Cosmic will still destroy most teams?

As the national governing body, UKHBPA

Currently it's just an initialism, the UKHBPA need to get their ducks in a row...

What if a team can't make it to enough NS events to qualify (financial, or restrictions on holiday time)?
What if teams resort back to their dynamic line-up nature, would you propose qualifying the individuals instead, as in NA?
What if the Euros organiser distributes spots differently next year (to cities/regions/etc)?

My personal view is that it's more likely that most teams would be able to make it to a qualifying event (that can potentially use the same court size/rules/whatever as the Euros itself) than several NS events. The London League is a whole different kettle of fish and seems largely irrelevant for UK (& I, sigh) Euros qualification.

Indeed, these are the reasons why the NS and London league surely cant have any bearing on qualification for the Euros, precedent is important here. If anything the finalists from the UK Champs could qualify and then the rest be decided by a tournament if that fits in with next years allocation of spots. However, as James says, UKHBPA will only be in a position to make decisions after the formation of a constitution (hopefully this will largely happen at the Cambridge tourney).

Ok stop talking about the London league, as long as it rejects teams from outside of London, it can't be the basis for any kind of uk wide auto qualification.

If you can't make three tourneys in the NS, you can always go through the normal qual process, we aren't suggesting getting rid of the qual process, although you are still having to comit to three games and more cost, distance and time than going to 3 NS events. So I think that argument is a bit false.

The main problem is the possibility of a change in method of slot allocation. This is the main reason I think the uk champs can't be used, this year And ireland being the perfect example. The NS and london open are open to anyone.

The answer is to write how these auto slots are assigned very carefully including the get out clause that if the UKhbpa isn't the governing body for the area's slots then it can't autoassign.

What if a team can't make it to enough NS events to qualify (financial, or restrictions on holiday time)?

It's 1 spot. To reduce the amount of teams in the qualifier. If it's announced in advance, then it's up to that team to decide on their priorities, and make their choices based on that.

What if teams resort back to their dynamic line-up nature

Then they lose the automatic spot. 2/3 rule.

What if the Euros organiser distributes spots differently next year (to cities/regions/etc)?

Then it doesn't apply any more.

Another point is that as the number of teams wanting to be in the uk qualifier goes up so do the number of games needed to tell who's ranked where logarithmically.

This means that removing one, two or three teams will have a massive effect on how long it takes (or how accurate you can be)

We're basically going down the same old London League argument but on a UK-wide scale (with the Champs or NS results).

My personal opinion is that a UK Champs should be organised each year (minimum of 8 weeks prior to the Euros?) which is then used to send UK teams to the Euros. Our qualification tournament has replaced the UK Champs as our Champs are stupidly late in the season.

Everything else is less ideal, but fair enough if you want to legitimize the NS standings somehow, but it doesn't really make sense to use the previous season's results to seed a current season tournament?

John: Consider the idea that all top teams change their line-ups one year... the system then falls down and sends a bunch of middle-ability (complete) teams from last season instead of the best possible UK teams (effectively putting a 1 season/year proving/qualification time period on all new UK teams)... this is a major flaw in my opinion and we should try and mirror the same-season qualification process of other countries/sports.

Again, the UKHBPA should think up the best system for this process (that will be robust in any given situation) that results in the top UK teams being sent to the Euros each year.

John: Consider the idea that all top teams change their line-ups one year... the system then falls down and sends a bunch of middle-ability (complete) teams from last season instead of the best possible UK teams (effectively putting a 1 season/year proving/qualification time period on all new UK teams)... this is a major flaw in my opinion and we should try and mirror the same-season qualification process of other countries/sports.

I simply don't agree. It's 1 or 2 teams, not a bunch, and either they still have 2/3 of their lineup, and are still a top team, or they don't, and lose the place.

Many sports don't use a same year qualification process.

The final NS event last year was 8? months before the Euros, it's not really that long.

jono, your point about a minimum 8 week gap between the two is crucial. on the assumption that the qualification process will stay the same, 2013 UKI Champs could auto-seed the one or two teams. with a short turn around till the actual euros, team line-up wouldn't change much.
alternatively, use the UK champs as the the qualifiers. only open to regional teams. lots of games, top X go through to euros. sometimes the seeding mightn't be fair, but that's sport. top 8(?) go through from euros to worlds. some teams will have a harder run than others and miss out because of it. unfortunately, that's just the system we have.

UK Champs > Euros > Worlds.

That's how I've always seen it.

Why give one spot out here and there and cause problems.

I like playing in tourneys. I don't want the free spot which means I'm excluded from a qualifying tourney.
All tournaments are important practice for any team.

I'd rather get good results in UK champs to enable a position in Europe etc.

It's 1 or 2 teams

You're potentially talking about the best two UK teams not having a route to the Euros? Lame.

2013 UKI Champs

Oh God. Is this a thing now? Lame.

sometimes the seeding mightn't be fair

A seeded double elim process (or whatever) is an adequate way of sending the best teams to the Euros in my opinion. We can always change the format of the UK Champs to solve whatever Euros Qualification need that may arise. They both have the same priorities (finding an accurate list of UK team ability)?

I have no doubt that the 2013 UK Champs will be organised too late in the season anyway. Lame.

You're potentially talking about the best two UK teams not having a route to the Euros? Lame.

Oh God. Is this a thing now? Lame..

How would the top two teams be excluded from the euros? they whole argument is that they're guaranteed spots.
The UKI champs was a thing based on many assumptions - same qualification grouping as this year, and using the champs as the main qualification route (thus requiring Ireland to be part for access to euros). let's hope it doesn't come to that though.

UK Champs > Euros > Worlds.

This would be nice if it was done right for next year, organised far enough in advance that the UK's actual top teams from all that want to play get to qualify.

How would the top two teams be excluded from the euros? they whole argument is that they're guaranteed spots.

Snoops (Cosmic), Ryan (Spring Break) and Josh (Nice Touch) have formed a theoretical super team (London All Stars) and need a route to this season's Euros based on last season's NS/UK Champs results, explain how they get there without adopting an individual qualification process (as in NA, which has it's own myriad of problems)... also explain why it's then a good thing for a 4th place team (or lower) from the NS Standings/Uk Champs to then be auto-qualify once all the teams above them have been dissolved (yet the players will be forming new teams for next season)?

(UK bike polo teams have been pretty static for the last two years, but this is not always going to be the norm.)

This would be nice if it was done right for next year, organised far enough in advance that the UK's actual top teams from all that want to play get to qualify.

UK Champs > Euros > Worlds. That's how I've always seen it.

+2, I'm not even sure if the NS Standings are an accurate representation of last season's teams ability, yet alone this seasons?