Old and new Campy 10 speed compatibility

To any sane person yes. But this is Campagnolo.

Stop making affordable mid-range hubs. Chains that can only be joined with a £100 tool, and only split twice. BB bearing (Ultra Torque) that can only be changed with a gear puller - an automotive tool that no one has and can't be bought in 99% of bike shops. Crank arms that can only be removed with a gear puller (Power Torque). Compact chainrings that have 110mm BCD for only FOUR of the bolts, and 112mm for the last one just so that you can't use anything else out there. Downgrading mid-range groups (Power Torque & Power Shift) to save money and NOT lowering the price. Gear cable whose head is just slightly smaller than everything else. Building a factory in Eastern Europe instead of Asia, the world's largest OEM market.

I swear, sometimes it's like they don't actually want people to buy their stuff. And this is coming from a Campagnolo user.

Is the new stuff made in the same place as the old stuff, or have they moved production somewhere "more affordable"?

Been told that the labour intensive carbon fibre stuff is made in Romanian, where labour is cheaper. So that's probably a lot of their high-end stuff then.

Building a factory in Eastern Europe instead of Asia, the world's largest OEM market.

If they had built the factory in asia they'd have the market flooded with fake campag gear within months, so i can certainly see the logic of keeping the factory closer to home.

I agree with the rest of it though.

If they had built the factory in asia they'd have the market flooded with fake campag gear within months, so i can certainly see the logic of keeping the factory closer to home.

I think that's also the official reason I've heard. I don't know about fakes, but I've certainly seen what-appears-t-be grey-market (non-Campag) stuff on places like ebay - new parts indistinguishable from the original but sold so cheap that you can't help but suspect that some of the sub-contractor in Taiwan are making them outside of contracts and off-loading them directly on the internet.

But is it such a big problem though? SRAM doesn't seem to mind, and they make all their stuff in Taiwan?

Have you seen fake SRAM parts?

Not sure, but back in 2008 I bought a brand new pair of 2008 RockShox Revelation for like half-price from some guy in Taiwan. Came with everything, including aftermarket packaging, stickers, manuals, shock pump. And IIRC he had something like 20 for sale on ebay for that buy-it-now price. Something just didn't feel right. But the fork worked fine and has been serviced with original spares. So I thought either the fakes were just that good, or it was grey-market: made by the same sub-contractors but sold directly. Or someone broke into a SRAM warehouse I suppose.

But is it such a big problem though? SRAM doesn't seem to mind, and they make all their stuff in Taiwan?

Its a massive problem! look at all the fake OEM carbonfibre frames on ebay, if they start to get a reputation for being just as good as the original issue frames then why would anyone spend the extra money to buy the real one?

Slowly but surely companies like pinarello are going to lose more and more potential customers. When your potential market is already small that's seriously bad news, I can see them regretting it in the long term. That OEM bike isn't going to pay R and D costs, it isn't going to pay for the sponsorship of the big competitions or the other advertising costs.

Plus if all the stuff is made in china, well then what's to stop a chinese company setting up and taking market share?...because after all the chinese stuff will be just as good as the campag stuff because that's where they will have learnt their trade.

You are starting to see it now with chinese motorbikes, ok the first generation are rubbish but they are honda & suzuki clones...when they finally iron out the issues they are going to dominate the market, just as the japanese did back in the 60s & 70s I think the japanese are going to live to regret having sold the chinese the old machining for their engines.

Look at the chinese throughout history and you will see that things they invented like silk they kept the secret to themselves and built a big wall. That's exactly what europe and the west should be doing with its intellectual property because the chinese have zero respect for intellectual property or copyright.

Most interesting few posts I've read on the forum for quite a while...

Its a massive problem! look at all the fake OEM carbonfibre frames on ebay, if they start to get a reputation for being just as good as the original issue frames then why would anyone spend the extra money to buy the real one?

Slowly but surely companies like pinarello are going to lose more and more potential customers. When your potential market is already small that's seriously bad news, I can see them regretting it in the long term. That OEM bike isn't going to pay R and D costs, it isn't going to pay for the sponsorship of the big competitions or the other advertising costs.

Plus if all the stuff is made in china, well then what's to stop a chinese company setting up and taking market share?...because after all the chinese stuff will be just as good as the campag stuff because that's where they will have learnt their trade.

You are starting to see it now with chinese motorbikes, ok the first generation are rubbish but they are honda & suzuki clones...when they finally iron out the issues they are going to dominate the market, just as the japanese did back in the 60s & 70s I think the japanese are going to live to regret having sold the chinese the old machining for their engines.

Look at the chinese throughout history and you will see that things they invented like silk they kept the secret to themselves and built a big wall. That's exactly what europe and the west should be doing with its intellectual property because the chinese have zero respect for intellectual property or copyright.

Fake OEM? It can't be fake if it's OEM - THEY are making it. Just because it's the same frame Pina chooses to use doesn't make it fake. Pina made the decision to purchase an OTP Chinese made carbon frame. If that OTP Chinese frame is sold to other brands or made available that's for them to decide.

Pinarello, etc. will lose customers because they are painting something made in China and adding £2k to the price tag for their brand to be stuck on it. People will still pay for the brand name but if this is watered down due to Italian companies out-sourcing to Chinese carbon manufacturers that's the fault of the Italians not the Chinese.

Chinese setting up and taking market share where? With what? You mean selling ACTUAL Pina frames? They might get away with it in China where western companies are pretty slack at pursuing IP infringements but they'll clamp down on it quick smart if the Chinese tried to sell Pina branded frames outside their borders. China does have IP and copyright laws.

Japanese motorbike manufacturing stole their ideas from western manufacturers, really? I know bugger all about motorbike history but as far as I'm aware Honda and Kawasaki don't copy the west, they invented a better product at the expense of the failing western options - similar to their smaller, better cars taking the place of gas guzzling Aussie and US makes during the oil crisis in the 70s.

Silk as an example, really? That was 2000 years ago..
http://www.silk-road.com/artl/silkhistory.shtml

If western companies want to keep using generic frames built in China and overcharging us for their logos then it's their own fault if we decide generic is 'good enough'.

Fake OEM? It can't be fake if it's OEM - THEY are making it. Just because it's the same frame Pina chooses to use doesn't make it fake. Pina made the decision to purchase an OTP Chinese made carbon frame. If that OTP Chinese frame is sold to other brands or made available that's for them to decide.

Pinarello, etc. will lose customers because they are painting something made in China and adding £2k to the price tag for their brand to be stuck on it. People will still pay for the brand name but if this is watered down due to Italian companies out-sourcing to Chinese carbon manufacturers that's the fault of the Italians not the Chinese.

Chinese setting up and taking market share where? With what? You mean selling ACTUAL Pina frames? They might get away with it in China where western companies are pretty slack at pursuing IP infringements but they'll clamp down on it quick smart if the Chinese tried to sell Pina branded frames outside their borders. China does have IP and copyright laws.

Japanese motorbike manufacturing stole their ideas from western manufacturers, really? I know bugger all about motorbike history but as far as I'm aware Honda and Kawasaki don't copy the west, they invented a better product at the expense of the failing western options - similar to their smaller, better cars taking the place of gas guzzling Aussie and US makes during the oil crisis in the 70s.

Silk as an example, really? That was 2000 years ago..
http://www.silk-road.com/artl/silkhistory.shtml

If western companies want to keep using generic frames built in China and overcharging us for their logos then it's their own fault if we decide generic is 'good enough'.

The japanese took over the small motorbike market, because no one took them seriously...the same thing is going to happen with the bike market if we continue producing bikes in the far east rather than protecting an industry which has spent millions on R&D. Originally the japanese manufacturers copied modular manufacture techniques from the british industry. They also copied the german HOREX engine, the bmw flat engine and the revolutionary MZ two stroke engine. Yamaha and suzuki only started winning after they got hold of the mz engine design. In the end yes they did become successful because british bikes were shit..but they still copied large parts of their designs.

Pinarello charges £2k because of the price of r&d and everything else...sure the actual product might only cost 200 dollars to make, but thats not what you are paying for...next you will be telling me a car should cost the price of the materials and the labour to put it together.

Yes it is the fault of the italians outsourcing, thats why compagnolo are wise to keep their brand inside europe. Just because someone pays you to make their frames doesn't mean you should go out and sell blank ones. Chinas idea of ip and copyright is laughable, there is a reason why it is where the majority of fake products come from. You try setting up a factory knocking out fake luis vuiton handbags anywhere else in the world, you'd be shut down and sued to death in no time.

The way you are talking it is as if the chinese are the ones designing these things, they aren't...they are merely the manufacturers...who are knocking out unpainted extras on the side and selling them. Pinarellos attempt to keep costs down by outsourcing is going to come back to bite them in the arse. The dogma frame contains 7 years of research and development, but they are made in china those 7 years have to be paid for somewhere...not by knocking out oem ones.

Yes i did use silk as an example, because it was one of the last example of the chinese actually inventing something completely by themselves rather than imitating usually poorly products from other countries. Go look up a list of chinese inventions, you will see what i mean. Christ they even produce fake food, like fake rice from plastic and poison their own people with baby milk tainted to fake the protein count in tests.

You are assuming that Pinarello are actually doing the R&D behind these frames rather than picking a frame from a catalog and ordering a bunch to paint up and ship out.

You are also assuming the same people making Pina frames are the ones selling the 'copies'. Any company could look at and copy the shape of a bike frame in carbon.

Do you think Pina would let their manufacturing arm sell 'excess stock' undercutting them? Seems pretty unlikely to me.

Compact chainrings that have 110mm BCD for only FOUR of the bolts, and 112mm for the last one just so that you can't use anything else out there.

That's really fucking shitty.

It's possible that Pinarello have never dealt with the factory that makes the frames, as odd as it sounds- I routinely meet the owner of a large, ostensibly British tool company in the pub (he lives round the corner from my folks, who live next to the "Q" of B&Q).

John's company now have a design office in China, but they have never spoken to the factory that makes their stuff- they always speak to a member of an ever changing cast of agents, all of whom claim to be "the actual" representative of the factory, but never are.

Funny way to do business- but it works.

So, Pinarello may have the same arrangement that John D's company do, a contract with the agent to produce 20,000 units for £99 per unit, shipped to a port in Europe.

Nothing whatsover to stop the factory flogging another 10,000 units through another agent once they have tooled up for it.

Would John like to stop this happening with his companies stuff? of course, he has paid for the design and so on.

Would he be willing to lose the profit margin that manufacturing in China gives him?

No, so he will put up with "no-brand" socket sets etc, and rely on his sales and marketing to move his stock ahead of the competition.

I can't even begin to get my head around why you think this would be the case? The spacing between 10-speed and 11-speed is different, so they must have different amounts of cable pull, otherwise you'd never get the gears to index properly.

As I understand it, all 10 speed components are compatible with one another. I've got 2010 Centaur levers, in the new shape, working with a 2006 (or maybe earlier) Centaur rear mech without any issues.

As AndyP said - it must be that the new 2011 10-speed rear mechs actuation is different. Before 2011, 10 speed has always been the same - like you have with your setup. The 'new shape' 'old logo' 2010 levers are the same as the previous 10-speed kit. But apparently different in pull to the 'new shape' 'new logo' 2011 levers.

I got this back from Campag themselves:

I confirm, it won’t work. With 2011 10S rear derailleur you must use 2011 10S Power Shift commands. The rest of the transmission can remain the same.

Cordiali Saluti/ Best Regards
Federico Fiori

China has little to no patent laws. Anyone who chooses to get something manufactured there has to weigh this up against the cheap labour costs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property_in_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China#Patent_law

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property_in_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China#Patent_law

The thing is that I think that most modern, rigid (no suspension) bicycle frames, whether made from steel, aluminium or carbon, have few, if any, patentable technologies on them. It's your garden variety double-diamond frame with a bunch of interfaces that are either over a century old prior art(e.g. insertion-type seatpost, threaded BB, press-fit headset), or modern open-standards (e.g. BB30, BB90, IS disc-mount etc.). And bicycling is not exactly at the forefront of material or manufacturing technology either. There just isn't a whole lot to patent. There are obviously exceptions, but I think this is generally true. Sure, the makers will throw in a bunch of curves and bulges nowadays too, to make things visually interesting, but most of these are not patentable either, since they rarely fulfil the general criteria for patent - new, non-obvious and useful.

That said the appearance of the frame can be protected as a registered design or trade dress, i.e. distinctive design which helps to identify to the consumer the origin (manufacturer) of the product. But I can only really think of about a dozen really distinctive rigid frame designs from the last century (GT's hellenic frame, the Flying Gate, that-BMC-thing, Cannondale Killer-V, Hetchins curly-stays etc). Strip away the decals and the paint, I think most of us would have a really hard time identifying most modern carbon road frames, especially when frame designs change as often as they have in the last few decades. So protecting frames with registered design or trade dress is also probably very difficult. I suppose Pinarello does have that weird as-if-seen-through-a-mirage curly stays and fork thing, but I'd be stupefied if it hasn't been done before like the hellenic frames.

Now compare rigid frames to major drivetrain components (i.e. NOT just chainrings or jockey wheels), disc-brakes, or suspension frames, you know, things that actually use technologies protected by patents, and all of which are made in China/Taiwan/Asia. You don't see any warnings from manufacturers about fakes, neither do you find no-label look-a-likes. (okay, there are a lot of no-label full-sus frames, but I'd argue that unlike the Pina fakes on ebay, they are not made to resemble known brands.)

I'm no expert on the matter, but I'd guess that the Chinese legal system is only part of the problem. I'm willing to bet that most people looking to buy fake Pinarellos on ebay or fake Louis Vuittons in Thailand are not being duped as such - they know it's not the real thing but they want to save some money. I think there lies the other part of the problem - counterfeits come out of places like China because the cheap labour combined with existing manufacturing capacities (plants and know-hows) means that counterfeits can be manufactured cheaply. If I want to make cheap carbon knockoffs in the UK I'd have to set up a plant first, then either train new workers or hire them from other industries that have experience working with carbon fibre, and I have to pay them UK wages. But who's gonna buy my fake Pina on ebay when they are only marginally cheaper than the real thing? Especially when the real thing is so readily available. I might as well throw in some marketing money and create my own brand.

So I guess it's sort of a smart move on Campa's part to manufacture in Romania - even if it had not been part of the EU, their Romanian technicians can't exactly just take Campa's designs to those *other *Romanian component manufacturers and start making counterfeits. There might be cheap labour, but outside of Campa's own facility I doubt there's the manufacturing capacity to make cheap counterfeits. But it's a two way street - sure it might be slightly safer in Romania, but Campagnolo had to build its own factories at considerable expense and it missed out on a workforce of technicians and workers that has real bike industry experience. Besides as SRAM, Race Face and FSA have demonstrated, drivetrain components are not susceptible to counterfeiting anyway - whatever IP laws they have in China/Taiwan/Asia seems to be working fine for those guys.

Sorry about the gigantic derail though. Can you tell I'm really bored at work?

Interesting reading, you make good points.

The thing is that I think that most modern, rigid (no suspension) bicycle frames, whether made from steel, aluminium or carbon, have few, if any, patentable technologies on them. It's your garden variety double-diamond frame with a bunch of interfaces that are either over a century old prior art(e.g. insertion-type seatpost, threaded BB, press-fit headset), or modern open-standards (e.g. BB30, BB90, IS disc-mount etc.). And bicycling is not exactly at the forefront of material or manufacturing technology either. There just isn't a whole lot to patent. There are obviously exceptions, but I think this is generally true. Sure, the makers will throw in a bunch of curves and bulges nowadays too, to make things visually interesting, but most of these are not patentable either, since they rarely fulfil the general criteria for patent - new, non-obvious and useful.

Excellent post, and saved me from typing a (not as good) response to this :-

Pinarello charges £2k because of the price of r&d and everything else...sure the actual product might only cost 200 dollars to make, but thats not what you are paying for...next you will be telling me a car should cost the price of the materials and the labour to put it together.

I'd imagine the R&D costs for Pinarello are minimal (the UCI makes sure of that), the money will be tied up in branding, marketing and team sponsorship keeping their profile as a premium brand

Edit - Also, gawd bless Campag. I've got to go through this experience in the near future as a 2008 Veloce user. Anyone know about chainset compatibility ? Would an 11spd Athena chainset work ok in a 10spd set up ?

I've got a 10 speed chainset working with an 11 speed setup so I imagine the converse will work fine too.

Does anyone know if I can use recent 10 speed ultra-torque cranks with the rest of a 10 speed veloce group that originally came with square taper cranks?

Obviously the bottom bracket systems aren't interchangeable, but how about the front and rear mechs - will they work the same with the newer chainset?

I managed to get an Ultegra 6500 crankset to work fine with a Chorus group - you should be fine.

Would an 11spd Athena chainset work ok in a 10spd set up ?

Of course. I've got a 11sp athena chainset with rest 10sp veloce, works perfectly.

Except Dura-ace 7900 and Ultegra 6700 who need 6700/7900 front derailleur (Shimano's info, i've never tested, something about the space between chainrings...), every chainset should work with every group? no?

My Veloce shifters say 10 speed, I've got 10 sprockets on my cassette and my RD is a 10 Veloce one. Can someone get my gears to index perfectly for a beer?

thanks guys, that's what i wanted to hear!