Primary position

What's wrong with South of the river for once?
Camberwell

@Will No

There is nowhere near the amount of cyclists in Birmingham and cars have no idea how to treat us but I rarely encounter aggression such as this yet in London where bikes are so abundant now, I encounter aggression quite often...it's quite interesting. I feel like when I move to London/if I teach here I will have to adapt how I teach to take into consideration alot of differences.

Your experience, of suddenly noticing something that you hadn't anticipated, is perfectly normal in London. I haven't cycled much in Birmingham, but I would say that yes, there is a definite difference. I would say that in London I would tend to ride in the primary position more, although that is probably partly because in Birmingham I was sightseeing. I did ride halfway around the inner ring road in Birmingham (missed out the southern half because I turned off too early), mostly in primary, especially in the tunnels, but there was only very light traffic. Despite a lot of fairly appalling traffic engineering, it was all very easy (and distances around the inner city were so short!).

In London, activity levels are so high, even in a suburb on the edge of Inner London such as Hackney, that you have to remain alert constantly. If you 'nod off', you'll probably end up being surprised. I think this is a major cause of stress for people and applies across all modes, even walking. Places with a slower pace of life are probably a lot healthier than London, I think.

My friend who'd ridden ahead came back to see what was going on and banged on his window, the guy jumped out the van and started screaming "What the fuck is your problem?" at me. I was shell shocked and didn't say anything. The two guys began to argue and the driver tried to headbutt my friend(!) before driving off. My friend then started shouting at me saying I should NEVER ride in the secondary position and I began to cry (out of anger I suppose) because well it's my goddamn job to teach people how to ride safely on the road!

snip

Further to the above incident, I then spent the rest of the day questioning myself, I always ride in the primary position when it's safe to do so but feel like I should also act sensibly and not block the roads when I'm going slower. I teach the syllabus exactly as it says on this topic but it seems like different instructors have different opinions on this...I know some instructors who NEVER take up primary except when turning and others who are adamant that you should all the time.

Well, your friend (is he an instructor, too?) is obviously wrong if he meant to articulate an inflexible and dogmatic position. Whether or not you take up the primary position depends on your risk assessment of the individual situation. As for those instructors who choose to take the primary position rarely, I would say that their stance would increase risk to them in a good number of other situations (pinch points, etc.), and that they shouldn't teach what they say, but that their own private riding style is really up to them.

Dogmatism about the primary position is something that most people who don't understand cycle training (well) slip into really easily.

I never use the phrase 'primary position' when I am instructing. Or 'risk assessment'. We should be able to use everyday language to explain what we mean. Don't even get me started on 2.10 "*Explain decisions made which demonstrate an understanding of your riding strategy".
*Similarly with school children I think it's better to explain junctions as being where a side road meets a main road - those are the phrases they will hear in everyday conversation. 'Major' and 'minor' are not commonly used. Keep the terms simple and concentrate on the principles; who has priority etc.
The other thing is to avoid, at all costs, trainees thinking their is *a *position they should adopt, rather than a variety of positions depending on circumstance. And to stress that being assertive and safe is not incompatible with being considerate.
This has been discussed before but I also think we should prepare trainees for the times when they will get shouted at or beeped at because we know it will happen and as they are learning to adapt to a more assertive style is when it will happen the most. It takes experience to master these techniques so I always take time at the end to talk to them about how they might react, what they can learn from these unpleasant incidents and about not taking it personally.

"ride where you can be seen" instead of "primary position" work wonder, allowed the individual to make their own decision on how to take the lane.

Once the individual realised that they don't have to ride like a second class road user (i.e. move out when a motorised vehicles is in the presence), everything should fall in place.

@ Oliver - I have lived and cycled in London for a few years before the 'boom' but I think my point was I am surprised that attitudes to cycling from other road users hasn't seemed to improved along with this. Yes indeed - for the second city, Birmingham never gets such high volumes of traffic and it's still relatively easy to get around without too much forward thinking. I will definitely take time to get to know the London roads well. My friend isn't an instructor no but is a very experienced rider who can't get his head around my riding style, he sees other traffic as the 'enemy' I suppose and thinks I am too courteous of a cyclist.

I really can't get my head around instructors who teach one thing but then do exactly the opposite in their own time but I suppose that's up to them. Sadly, there is a huge money incentive in these parts to teach Bikeability, etc and I encounter some people who really couldn't care less about the job or the future cycling habits of their trainees.

The hardest thing is getting the trainees to think for themselves, it's quite easy to follow what we do once they've been shown it exactly but no situation is the same. I find it frustrating that some groups never get taken off the quiet side rides so they're (in my opinion) really underprepared for the road and the actions they might encounter from other road users. Major and minor always proves to be confusing as children especially focus on the actual words instead of their meaning if that makes sense? On some courses primary and secondary aren't used at all, instead stay behind me and come past me are used and then sometimes there is swapping between the two which is also confusing for the trainees. Also, I suppose because of my age (22) I get instructors who are the designated assistant who completely take over sessions which I don't mind so much as I try and let the assistant instructor do part of the teaching and swap over a bit because it's boring sometimes but not at the detriment of the teaching quality.

It would be very useful to meet up but unfortunately I'll be mid way to Berlin on my charity ride by the 10th. Hopefully someone can take notes or feedback. I shall be in London on Friday getting ready for the Open polo tournament so maybe catch some of you then.

Some random anecdotal stuff for you all:

On group rides (club runs, TNRC, etc.), cars approaching from the rear can often lead to some less than ideal riding:

• typically the rider acting as backstop at that point will shout 'car back!', to alert the peloton, particularly if they see members of the group riding wide/erratically ahead of them.

• they might also add 'single up!' if the road is narrow, the driver is acting very twitchily, or if there is an unbroken 'no overtaking' white line (where they feel that the driver is going to overtake anyway, and forcing them any wider than necessary could have more dramatic implications)

I think both of those are good things. Now for the bad:

• the backstop or riders near to the back become uncomfortable with the presence of the car behind them, even if the driver is sat well back and being unthreatening, and start gesticulating that the driver should come through (I think the decision should be 100% that of the driver, with no coercion from riders)

• on hearing 'car back!' some riders immediately slow down, often abruptly - WTF? Dangerous, concertinaing effect, with riders weaving to avoid each others' wheels.

• as a driver overtakes the group, some riders accelerate - again WTF? I remember how some car drivers would also do this when being overtaken. Not sure if it's psychological, belligerent, or something to do with perception of speed/motion. Anyway, it gets on my tits.

Thankfully these situations are more often the exception than the norm, and designated ride leaders/responsible adults riders try to remedy the situation vocally or through their own riding/positioning. It's very enlightening to backstop a ride and watch the behaviour of individuals (or the headless peloton) in front of you; even moreso if you drift off the back and watch the interaction with cars that slot in behind the group.

I think with the increase in cyclist numbers on the roads, especially during rush hour, the finer points of group riding are becoming an important cycle training topic; including organized group vs one that forms organically and temporarily en route.

CTUK attended Transport for London’s Cycle Safety Seminar today at City Hall.
It’s focus was on ‘reducing conflict between lorries and cyclists on London’s roads’.
There were some intersting development's in TfLs thinking which are worth mentioning here:

**1. **Primary position by design
John Lee, the principle road engineer for TfL, presented current thinking in infrastructure engineering. An example he gave involves narrowing roads in some circumstances aiming to prevent drivers overtaking (wherever the cyclist chooses to position themselves in the lane). John also showed some alternative advance stop box design which aims to minimise issues around the feeder lane that encourages riders to the left of left turning vehicles. He stated that these ideas aim to minimise apparent conflict between NS cycle training messages and the way some roads are designed.

1. Educating drivers about where to expect cyclists.
   Another positive note that came out of that meeting follows on from the fact that many professional drivers, through on-bike cyclist awareness training, are beginning to understand why riders ride in the middle of the lane when they need to. While bus drivers and some HGV drivers are getting this message the average car and van driver are still confused by such behaviour and some act aggressively to cyclists in this position. TfL’s Better Routes and Places manager stated that TfL are now developing some new marketing/education material which will show riders positioned centrally in the lane and will be consulting CTUK and others through the Cycle Safety working group.
   
   

Chief Inspector Ian Vincent of the cycle Safety Squad is keen to hear reports about aggressive drivers. These can be sent via this website:
http://www.met.police.uk/roadsafelondon/

Maybe it's time for another instructors drinks evening? I know LMNH is the default location but perhaps we could go somewhere where you don't have to do two Dr Bikes to be able to pay for a beer?

Good plan Will
Let's all make a date, we've a lot to talk about
**Wed 10th August evening from 1800 at The Nobody Inn, Newington Green?
http://www.beerintheevening.com/pubs/s/64/6495/Nobody_Inn/Newington_Green
**
Who's in?

1. skydancer
   
   
   

What's wrong with South of the river for once?
Camberwell

OK festus. Happy to go South
Suggest date time and venue...
(In fact why not start a Cycling Instructor Drinks thread?)

This should be re-posted on other relevant threads.

Chief Inspector Ian Vincent of the cycle Safety Squad is keen to hear reports about aggressive drivers. These can be sent via this website:
http://www.met.police.uk/roadsafelondon/

If he really is 'keen' I suspect that weekly or daily reports from LFGSS members will be manna from heaven for him.

^Done
proasted

This should be re-posted on other relevant threads.

Chief Inspector Ian Vincent of the cycle Safety Squad is keen to hear reports about aggressive drivers. These can be sent via this website:
http://www.met.police.uk/roadsafelondon/

If he really is 'keen' I suspect that weekly or daily reports from LFGSS members will be manna from heaven for him.

However, without camera footage or corroborating witness accounts, a letter will now no longer be sent to the road user specified in the complaint. Previously, this was the general procedure for "cycling near misses". Other offences were dealt with differently.

The RoadSafe team were advising regular users of their service to invest in a camera.

That's a shame. However, if everyone used this service every time they encounter dangerous driving it at least adds to the pressure for cyclists' concerns to be listened to and builds up some statistics about how often cyclists encounter such behaviour.

srsly.dont think theres enough room on the internet to post all the examples of poor/threatening driving that i come across.

That's a shame. However, if everyone used this service every time they encounter dangerous driving it at least adds to the pressure for cyclists' concerns to be listened to and builds up some statistics about how often cyclists encounter such behaviour.

Indeed. I'd still encourage people to use the RoadSafe site and the CTC's Stop Smidsy site when reporting incidents.

That's a shame. However, if everyone used this service every time they encounter dangerous driving it at least adds to the pressure for cyclists' concerns to be listened to and builds up some statistics about how often cyclists encounter such behaviour.

Indeed +1 to this

Primary position piece in the Guardian Bike Blog (including refs to Dave D and LFGSS):

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/bike-blog/2011/aug/01/cyclist-take-the-lane

‪Dave D - Have You Seen Davy.( 1987 )‬‏ - YouTube

Before I left work I read that Guardian article on primary positioning, something that's always bothered me, as no matter how safe you ride some drivers will react badly.

Low and behold on the way south from bloomsbury through covent garden I turn left onto endell st (single lane) and immediately hear a taxi accelerate up my arse and start beeping his horn. I'm in primary, the only lateral space availble being the odd parking space. I turn and say "no room!" he beeps louder I shout louder "THERE'S NO ROOM" etc till the exit where I pull left and gesture for him to overtake and he thanks me sarcastically.

Within 5 seconds he's stopped behind a dustbin lorry turning onto the zebra crossing to which he also beeps.

He had no fare, and I was behind him as he turned into covent garden after the opera house. Perhaps he was performing this evening? Or maybe delivering a dress?

^that often happens down that road (endell st). I'm usually on a road bike and just go fast down the middle of the lane which usually works, but I still sense sometimes that a cabbie is desperate to tailgate me. I find there are certain roads where, for some reason I can't work out, drivers (often cabbies) behave like arseholes. Another example is the sliproad off the Euston Road going east, at UCLH/Gower Street.

The suggestion above about TFL getting taxi drivers to have some form of cycle training sounds like a v good idea to me.

Is it a cyclist's right to 'take the lane'?
yes,
next

The suggestion above about TFL getting taxi drivers to have some form of cycle training sounds like a v good idea to me.

I have noticed for some time that the level of agro from black taxis has been on the rise. Addison Lee have always been crap and remain so. I just think there are more riders about. The Taxi lot feel a considerable entitelment and that we are in the way generally.

I am twittering with a loadof Black cabs at the mo on this very subject. Facinating. No really... ;-) Despite some of them being rather intollerant, all most really want is for riders to communicate and behave predictably.... sound familliar? They do tend to talk about us not paying "Road Fund" though. I'm working on it. #livinginanothercentury

Personally I still feel teaching driving instructor would make the biggest difference.

Personally I still feel teaching driving instructor would make the biggest difference.

The Highway code needs to be amended to reflect correct road use by cyclists and how drivers of motor vehicles should respond. Then it can be covered it in the theory paper.

Given the uninformed, gormless and lazy "I pay road tax" argument that we've all heard ad nauseum, you could see how said driver(s) would take offence to a 'scummy' cyclist taking the lane without any signal or acknowledgement. When was the last time you saw any smiles, thumbs up, a wave or the words "thank you" from a cyclist to a driver (or even to a fellow cyclists) last week, month or year?! I rarely do. It's human psychology that we like being thanked and recognised for the little things we do. I firmly believe better manners would ease many of these potential confrontations. Next time you find yourself going through a pinch point get into position on time and try looking said driver in the eye with a thumb up in advance.

More of this. Well articulated MG.

The Highway code needs to be amended to reflect correct road use by cyclists and how drivers of motor vehicles should respond. Then it can be covered it in the theory paper.

It needs more than covering in theory. Learners encounter cyclists during lessons and as such their instructors must be required to know the rules relating to cycling, and not instead, for example from experience, shout at cyclists to get in the cycle lane - propogating this view to the next generation of drivers.

I'm still considering the view that L3 bikeability should be pre-requisite to provisional driving licence. Can't think why not. Happy to be talked around by reasoned argument.