EU Written Declaration on HGVs - PLEASE SUPPORT

ps. related link: http://www.no-more-lethal-lorries.org.uk/index.asp?PageID=17

& fb group: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=28903548493

[U][/U]I am a former professional HGV 1 driver and a 4000-6000 mile a year cyclist. ***
Maybe there are some other ideas that could be included in your campaign:***

1. Put sensors and/or cameras on the doors of trucks. (Agree[U][/U])
   
2. Use left hand drive trucks for city deliveries (This could be the simplest solution).
   
3. Improve training for drivers.
   
4. Weed out poor/incompetent drivers.
   
5. Remove time pressure for all drivers.
   
6. More regular and accurate eye tests for all age groups of drivers.
   

Apparently, Sarah Ludford signed last week.

[U][/U]I am a former professional HGV 1 driver and a 4000-6000 mile a year cyclist. ***
Maybe there are some other ideas that could be included in your campaign:***

1. Put sensors and/or cameras on the doors of trucks. (Agree[U][/U])
   
2. Use left hand drive trucks for city deliveries (This could be the simplest solution).
   
3. Improve training for drivers.
   
4. Weed out poor/incompetent drivers.
   
5. Remove time pressure for all drivers.
   
6. More regular and accurate eye tests for all age groups of drivers.
   
   
   
   
   

I always thought the door should be made of a clear material so they could see. Surely that couldn't coast that much.

Lorry redesign for urban areas refuse vehicle style would be good.

and Jean Lambert says she'll sign

Email from Andrew Duff's assistant. He'll let me know when he signs it. I asked if he was definitely signing it. "I can't see why he wouldn't" he says...

http://road.cc/content/news/27511-breaking-seven-years-jail-and-lifetime-ban-lorry-driver-who-killed-catriona-patel

This is motivating me. God I hope we can do it.

Related article in today's Guardian regarding research conducted into the danger posed by HGV's in urban areas and calls for them to be banned:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/bike-blog/2010/nov/18/hgv-city-ban-to-protect-cyclists

I always thought the door should be made of a clear material so they could see. Surely that couldn't coast that much.

Is this a serious suggestion?

Most of these deaths are caused by:

1. Cyclists riding up the inside of moving trucks.
   
2. Drivers not using their mirrors.
   
   

It's that simple.

Sure, there is a bit of a blind spot as lorry cabs are so high up and the mirrors on the passenger door are so far from the driver they can hard to see out of, but any driver aware enough would be checking their mirrors sufficiently to know what is going on.

Using continental trucks for city deliveries, or using refuse vehicle style trucks as mentioned by Oliver Schick would be a cheap solution, as the driver would be much closer to the action on the curb.

Anyone who has ever seen the volume of goods going into a London supermarket before Christmas would realize what an impractical idea smaller trucks or alternative means of distribution would be.

Is this a serious suggestion?

Most of these deaths are caused by:

1. Cyclists riding up the inside of moving trucks.
   
2. Drivers not using their mirrors.
   
   

It's that simple.

Sure, there is a bit of a blind spot as lorry cabs are so high up and the mirrors on the passenger door are so far from the driver they can hard to see out of, but any driver aware enough would be checking their mirrors sufficiently to know what is going on.

Using continental trucks for city deliveries, or using refuse vehicle style trucks as mentioned by Oliver Schick would be a cheap solution, as the driver would be much closer to the action on the curb.

Anyone who has ever seen the volume of goods going into a London supermarket before Christmas would realize what an impractical idea smaller trucks or alternative means of distribution would be.

I can't see a problem with doors that have windows that reach the floor of the cab. Did you reply to this after a few too many bitch pops?

Surely the argument is that cyclists should feel safe cycling up the side of anything. Why should we have to dance around lethal lorries on our roads? That sounds like victim blaming to me.

I disagree with you regarding the distribution solution. How do countries like Germany manage it? You've set your standards for cyclists pretty low.

Well, it is of course a problem in itself that we have highly-concentrated 'supermarkets'/'hypermarkets' in the first place instead of smaller, local shops in more walkable/cyclable places. Obviously, such businesses in Central London can have small premises and still need a lot of stock. The problem with over-concentrated retail applies even more to areas outside of Inner London, but there's certainly an issue in Inner London, too.

ive just sent my email to local mep :)

cameras sound like a good idea
but that only accounts for the accidents and deaths through visibility issues

what about dangerous driving/cycling etc
hgv drivers (car and van drivers for that matter also) don't seem to realize there in control of potentially a deadly weapon when it comes to cyclist and pedestrians
and that cyclist who put themselves in stupid/dangerous positions are just asking for trouble
educating both parties further is still needed imo

it's a step in the right direction though

thanks for posting this ufrasia

I can't see a problem with doors that have windows that reach the floor of the cab.
Currently there are not many lorries that are city safe like Dennis Eagle http://www.dennis-eagle.co.uk/. So this window idea you are talking about means modifying trucks, could be an expensive or impractical situation, really this is a question for an engineer. Also a window might not really help that much.

Surely the argument is that cyclists should feel safe cycling up the side of anything. Why should we have to dance around lethal lorries on our roads? That sounds like victim blaming to me.
It sounds like you are suggesting that cyclists should be immune from the highway code and using common sense.

I disagree with you regarding the distribution solution. How do countries like Germany manage it? You've set your standards for cyclists pretty low.
London is easily the biggest city in Europe, with twice the population of any other city, at somewhere between 7-10 million people, depending on how it is measured. Germany and many other countries have smaller truck distribution. If we tried it here we would need to put thousands of square acres of green belt land under concrete for new distribution centres. Also it would massively increase costs of labour and traffic. I also doubt any lives would be saved as you would need up to ten small 3.5 tonne trucks as a replacement for one artic, more miles driven equals more danger.

It also sounds like you've decided to pick a fight with trucks. You seem to be slavering for a general lorry ban. However the infrastructure of the UK needs trucks for its distribution. Maybe your campaign would be better arguing for more cycle lanes, education and for some actual research to be done into how cycle lanes and trucks can be cheaply and effectively modified as soon as possible to best to safeguard cyclists.

I think there is a compromise that we're not taking advantage of. If the night time ban was removed and a daytime access solution like the outer London pickup points was operational then I think we'd see far less deaths. HGVs could still come in and vulnerable road users would be safer.

How much more actual research needs to be done!? Doc A from this forum did a study that basically reiterated what was found in 1985 (http://www.bmj.com/content/308/6943/1534.abstract)

We can't share the road with something that can't see us. That's not sharing. I don't need a research scientist to tell me the same thing in another 10 years. We know it now and yet things still don't change.

London is easily the biggest city in Europe, with twice the population of any other city, at somewhere between 7-10 million people, depending on how it is measured.

You're not wrong there (according to [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Largest_cities_of_the_European_Union_by_population_within_city_limits"]population within the actual city limits[/ame]), but the Larger Urban Zones measurement puts London, Paris, and Istanbul (half of which is technically not in Europe) at approximately the same level. The key figure, though, is density. London is denser than Paris--no figure given for Istanbul:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larger_UrbanZones%28LUZ%29_in_the_European_Union

It's the density and the patterns within that that make the problems knotty.

It also sounds like you've decided to pick a fight with trucks. You seem to be slavering for a general lorry ban. However the infrastructure of the UK needs trucks for its distribution. Maybe your campaign would be better arguing for more cycle lanes, education and for some actual research to be done into how cycle lanes and trucks can be cheaply and effectively modified as soon as possible to best to safeguard cyclists.
That's all been done and continues to be done (although the role of cycle lanes in such a scenario will of necessity be very limited, if anything). The reasons why people are calling for action on lorries are not just about the disproportionate share that collisions between lorries and cyclists have in cyclist deaths, but also to benefit pedestrians, who are also heavily affected.

That's all been done and continues to be done (although the role of cycle lanes in such a scenario will of necessity be very limited, if anything). The reasons why people are calling for action on lorries are not just about the disproportionate share that collisions between lorries and cyclists have in cyclist deaths, but also to benefit pedestrians, who are also heavily affected.
Maybe there has been some research done, and some is being done, but more research cannot hurt. Most of the research seems to be data collection on statistics with no underlying analysis of why these things are happening, and no in my view no deep research into how lorries can be made safer. There must by ways of making it much less likely for a cyclist to be hurt or killed for a truck. If there were more bars down the side of trucks or a rubber skirt down the side of it this might help, but research is needed to find new solutions and which possible solutions we already have, that could be practically implemented cheaply.

I think there is a compromise that we're not taking advantage of. If the night time ban was removed and a daytime access solution like the outer London pickup points was operational then I think we'd see far less deaths. HGVs could still come in and vulnerable road users would be safer.
I completely agree with you here, It seems a good night's sleep for the many is more important that the lives of a few. This is again why I believe in research. A new EEC directive for lower noise volume for truck engines and refrigerated truck units would be a good start.

My opinion is that pedestrians, cycles, buses, ambulances, fire engines, police, trucks and taxis are needed on the roads. Cycles and pedestrians are the original road users, sustainable and logical means of transport. Buses are obvious mass transit, taxis are small scale transit, others are emergency services, and trucks are needed for goods. This leaves motorcycles and cars. Motorcycles are fine as they use such little road space and have excellent visibility. Then we need to think about cars. Really how many are actually needed? How much more of the road could be better used if the roads were better divided in favour of cycles if the space cars used was taken out of the system?

Lots of calls for bans I believe comes from people who are quite rightly afraid of trucks, they make people feel uncomfortable and very vulnerable. If lorries are not safe to share the road with cycles shouldn't we first try government legislation to try to change the design of the trucks so that they are safe to share the roads with cyclists?

Maybe there has been some research done, and some is being done, but more research cannot hurt. Most of the research seems to be data collection on statistics with no underlying analysis of why these things are happening, and no in my view no deep research into how lorries can be made safer.

i think you need to go do some more searching - there's a reasonable amount of research already (that is not just secondary data - read, statistical - analysis)

i think you need to go do some more searching - there's a reasonable amount of research already (that is not just secondary data - read, statistical - analysis)
Been searching, can't find anything about how trucks are being made safer other than a few things about mirrors, sensors and cameras. Maybe if you could give me some links.

I have a theory that if women are statistically more likely than men to be killed or injured by a lorry then possibly air pressure is an issue, and that men being stronger are less likely to be affected. Has this been researched? If not, wouldn't this be a good subject for students doing an engineering or physics Phd thesis?

look for articles by Neiwohner - see the references in my paper for a starting point.

Just got this back:

Thank you for your email of 11th November regarding the elimination of blind spots for Lorries.

There are hundreds of Written Declarations and a Member cannot possibly read them all. However, I will bear your thoughts and comments on this matter in mind and will certainly read this Written Declaration which has been proposed by my Lib Dem colleague Fiona Hall MEP.

The See me, Save me campaign is something I strongly support. During Road Safety Week I think it is essential that MEPs and MPs do what they can to help reduce road deaths and injuries in Europe.

Yours sincerely,

Graham Watson MEP
Liberal Democrat Member of the European Parliament for South West England and Gibraltar

Had an advert for his latest book at the bottom of the email too..?!

Gerard Batten said:

"Thank you for your email.

I agree that this is a serious and pressing issue but one that should be addressed only by democratic national parliaments.

I was elected on the basis of advocating Britain’s withdrawal from the European Union; the European Union is undemocratic and indeed anti-democratic. Therefore on a point of principle I never sign Written Declarations where they call for more EU legislation. I would like to emphasise that Written Declarations have no legislative effect.

I always vote against EU legislation, believing that the governance of countries should be by their accountable and directly elected governments. It would therefore be inconsistent to sign a Written Declaration calling for further EU legislation. Please see the attached copy of my Personal Declaration that states the basis on which I hold my seat in the European Parliament."

I sent it to all my 8 (eight) MEP's.... There's zero accountability in the eu, but it is good at making new laws. The vehicles have to change, regardless of which city.. I used to drive 12T trucks, had a near miss with a child, and there's loads of scope for design improvements, imo. Large vehicles will always be taking goods into big populations, on crap roads. Its a central pillar of Capitalism.

We could do with another campaign, that Gerard Batten returns his fat cat eu pay, on the principle that he's refusing to do the job he's being paid for. UNFCKNGBLVBL

UKIP aren't too interested:

Dear Mr Sparkes

Thank you for your email dated 13th November 2010, addressed to David
Campbell Bannerman MEP and Stuart Agnew MEP. I am replying on their behalf.

We were very sorry to hear of the death of your friend and will certainly
have a look at the wording of this particular declaration. However, there
are two things that I should point out:

Firstly, written declarations, even if they achieve the required number of
signatures, are not binding upon the European Commission. Most are ignored.
Unfortunately, this can be rather cynically used by the European Commission
as a means of diverting people with genuine concerns into what can
ultimately turn out to be a pointless paper chase.

Secondly, I ought to mention that the UKIP MEPs were elected on a platform
of withdrawal from the EU and, as such, have no mandate for encouraging the
EU to legislate.

In spite of the above reservations, we will give serious consideration to
signing the declaration, if we can do so without compromising our
principles.

Best wishes,

Stuart Gulleford
Political Advisor - Eastern Counties

UK Independence Party
145 New London Road
Chelmsford
Essex
CM2 0QT

Tel: 01245 266466
Fax: 01245 252071
Email: eastern@ukip.org
www.stuartagnewmep.co.uk
www.dcbmep.com
www.ukip.org