Cycle accident on Holloway Road

Pedestrian and cycle training should be compulsory at schools.

And it should include some 'real life' stuff... ie not just about the green cross / highway code, it should consider the reality that people do cross when they shouldn't but tell them when is safe and when is not.
There is only so much we can teach at schools. If you want to include cycle training and "crossing the road" training then what are you going to cut out?
Yes I agree people need educating but I don't agree with people always saying "we need to teach this in schools". We weren't taught it in school but we have learned.

That's fucking helpful!

But it's true

So the driver faces no punishment despite being found to be driving illegally?
If no accident had occurred and a hawk-eyed police officer just happened to notice the missing mirror then I imagine there would be some form of punishment, no?

He can still be charged with other related offences, it's just not for the judge or jury to determine whether he should be. It isn't a function that is within their remit. (Sideline comment, I think that it is important from a legal and legislative point of view that they cannot. It is a key foundation of the judicial system that it can only determine on cases presented to them but have the freedom to do so unhindered by other constructs of authority) Don't presume that he hasn't been suitable charged for this, it's just not something that is commonly considered newsworthy.

But it's true

I don't think it's true at all. It's a total cop out.
Many of these deaths have been caused by drivers who cannot see cyclists due to the height of their cabs and a lack of mirrors. If Coroners addressed inferior lorry design in inquests we'd all be much better off - hauliers and cyclists alike. Lorry firms can help look after us by setting a deadline to remedy their fleets. Even a token gesture of 10yrs would help.

Cyclist shouldn't have to sit back and accept that it's our sole responsibilty.

From what I remember at the time.
What happened was she pushed her bike across the road, directly in front of a stationary lorry. Who unfortunately, happened to start moving as she was right in front of it. He obvioulsy didn't see her

That

She was pushing her bike accross and in a blind spot, i was thinking about this plea for penalising lorry drivers and making a point to note the state of their being and transport at the point of the accident.

Should law change it starts in favour of the cyclist then they will surely take a note of the cyclists bike, lights, helmet, history etc etc this sword cuts both ways

I don't think it's true at all. It's a total cop out.
Many of these deaths have been caused by drivers who cannot see cyclists due to the height of their cabs and a lack of mirrors. If Coroners addressed inferior lorry design in inquests we'd all be much better off - hauliers and cyclists alike. Lorry firms can help look after us by setting a deadline to remedy their fleets. Even a token gesture of 10yrs would help.

Cyclist shouldn't have to sit back and accept that it's our sole responsibilty.

i go by the rule of thumb - if i can't see them they can't see me

works

TSK, I wasn't suggesting that the victim's action was completely safe--I was just wondering what grounds the judge could have had for claiming that she was in breach of the HC. It is unfortunately often the case that one way in which people try to deal with the sad reality of such a crash, one of the most comforting ways they find, especially if refusing to learn more about the issues, is in victim-blaming.

'Cyclist X jumped a red light? That's all right then, they deserved to be killed.' I kid you not, I have actually heard people say that. Most people aren't campaigners and need some sort of mechanism to resist the call to action that such facts have built into them, which is why they don't want to face the reality that there are many things wrong with the overriding status quo--it just seems too much work and too hard to change hearts and minds--, so that they concentrate on more superficial things.

ICAG, the Islington Cyclists' Action Group, by the way, have called for action on this junction for years but before this crash nothing happened. It's been a known issue for a long time. Now there are some better options on the table and TfL is working together with ICAG on choosing the best one, subject to funding. It won't necessarily be pretty, but it'll hopefully deal in some way with the staggered nature of the junction, with the positioning of the traffic signal heads, and I think one aspect that looks likely to happen is the relocation of the pedestrian crossing south of the junction.

i go by the rule of thumb - if i can't see them they can't see me

works

True. Just add to that "if they can see me, they probably don't give a fuck about me or realise how vulnerable I am" and your on to a winning mentality for road safety.

True. Just add to that "if they can see me, they probably don't give a fuck about me or realise how vulnerable I am" and your on to a winning mentality for road safety.

I disagree, Keith. That's a victim mentality. It's not helpful and is also called 'cyclist inferiority complex'. It will show in your behaviour, your body language, everything. Do cycle training--learn how to be a more confident street user. Make yourself visible. Communicate well. Be assertive. Once you start to see traffic as a social environment, you'll enjoy your riding so much more. It's all about people, not the different modes they choose to use for travel.

And unless they have made proper eye contact with you then you can probably assume that even if you have seen them they still probably haven't seen you.

Yes, eye contact is very important.

TSK, I wasn't suggesting that the victim's action was completely safe--I was just wondering what grounds the judge could have had for claiming that she was in breach of the HC.

"Never cross the road in front of, or behind, any vehicle with its engine running, especially a large vehicle, as the driver may not be able to see you."

Lifted from rule 14, here.

Ah, thanks, Ian.

I stand corrected, I didn't think there was a breach of the HC. I'm not sure how relevant that portion is to contemporary road conditions. I would never give that advice myself, albeit I would advise on risks and risk awareness.

'Breach' of the HC--it's a compendium of relevant law and advice. This rule is advice. You can fail to follow it, but can you 'breach' advice like you can a law?

My point was that people have to take responsibility for their own actions.
My friend and I, when we were younger, used to wait at the lights by the North Circular for artic lorries to stop there. We would then run underneath them.
Completely fucking insane. Up there with some of the most ridiculous things I have ever done. If I was killed,which by some miracle, I wasn't. Who would be responsible?

Similarly, I can completely understand why dirvers think. 'If a cyclist jumps a red and dies. Its their fault.'

Of course its their fault. Whose else is it?

the traffic gets stuck on the crossing when its busy, cyclists then try to weave through 4 lanes of traffic, when the lights are green or red. it doesn't take long for something to happen.

Polky, it is ok but a lot of traffic is slow moving Nth on A1/Holloway Rd and will go through the lights while on green, they are then held up before they get to the point where they cross the cycle crossing meanwhile the lights will change to green for the bike lane and bikes starte to cross however the traffic going Nth are still under the impression they are clear to go and have a right of way.

This could be solved by extending the box junction and instaling a camera to enforce it and/or putting another traffic light on the same timing on the Nth corner of Madras Place.

Yep I see what you are saying, and now you mention it I have found myself filtering through this stuck traffic on a number of occasions - seems as sketchy as a RLJ...

it doesn't make sense, if she was pushing her bike, then technically she is not in operation of the bike. she's a pedestrian right? hence not bound by highway code — just as if she were pushing her bike along a sidewalk... in this case it still should be a drivers responsibility to look out for pedestrians, and give them the right of way even if the driver is given a green light or right of way, correct? also — correct me if i'm wrong, but — last time i checked, jaywalking is technically not a crime in the UK?

I used to work with Lisa...

She was an incredibly enthusiastic and energetic woman, who single handedly regenerated green spaces and parks around North London with no pay and in the face of lots of beaurocracy.

She will be sadly missed.

she's a pedestrian right? hence not bound by highway code ...

The first part of the highway code is the introduction. The second part is Rules for Pedestrians.

... also — correct me if i'm wrong, but — last time i checked, jaywalking is technically not a crime in the UK?

but even parts of the highway code that do not relate to specific offences can be used in court to establish liability. See the third paragraph of the introduction.

Morally, it's harder to ascribe much fault to her. As the role of pedestrian is open to the public without training, it is unreasonable to expect pedestrians to have intimate knowledge of either the highway code or the blind spots of lorries with particular configurations of mirrors. Lorries with high cabs are significantly different from other vehicles, even other long vehicles like buses. They need to be treated differently by other road users, but lorries are just rare enough for people not to realise this. They are an anomaly that continues to kill people.

I think this was an awful, needless loss of life, and i wish Coroners would question the suitability of lorries for our roads, beyond whether they happen to meet the rules currently in force.

The Lady had NOT run a red light. There is a fundamental flaw with the Fieldway cresent junction with where the trafic lights are placed on the Holloway Road and the delay they have..

i lived on fieldway crescent and your totally right. the crossing is a joke. the lights stop traffic about ten meters from the crossing cars speed up to make the lights at which point the cycle crossing lights go green. always an accident waiting to happen. (the rest of this thread may move away from what ive quoted above - ive only read page one) I always hated that crossing, even when i was on foot.

Did anyone go down Holloway Road this morning?
It was absolute mayhem. I mean 1000x worse then usual. Motorcyclist, mopeds, hundreds of them many riding like cocks. Load of nodders out for the sunshine. Lorries, buses. Add to that the pot holes in the road. Christ it was well stressful!

Also, are motorbikes allowed in the ASLs? Because if not, then they are really starting to piss me off. Its dangerous enough as it is without being forced, pretty much to jump the lights or hang around on the outside of buses, lorries because of them.

Rant over

I used to work with Lisa...

She was an incredibly enthusiastic and energetic woman, who single handedly regenerated green spaces and parks around North London with no pay and in the face of lots of beaurocracy.

She will be sadly missed.

puts it a little more in perspective really. v sad

Did anyone go down Holloway Road this morning?
It was absolute mayhem. I mean 1000x worse then usual. Motorcyclist, mopeds, hundreds of them many riding like cocks. Load of nodders out for the sunshine. Lorries, buses. Add to that the pot holes in the road. Christ it was well stressful!

Also, are motorbikes allowed in the ASLs? Because if not, then they are really starting to piss me off. Its dangerous enough as it is without being forced, pretty much to jump the lights or hang around on the outside of buses, lorries because of them.

Rant over

Last Friday I finally saw a police officer tell a motor bike/cyclist for encroaching the ASL. All too rare an event.