Official Nicky G on QT thread...

iI got a "b" in gay sex at school.

V.Poor, please see me after class.

Not up to your usual high standards.

Anyone here a specialist in the history of the second world war?

I ask because there was a young Jewish chap who asked about the BNP using images of Churchill. He said that Winston laid everything on the line in order to stop Jews being gassed in concentration camps.

Just from my personal knowledge of WWII, I thought that the truth about the concentration camps (the genocide aspect as opposed to being a forced labour camp) only came out after Germany had been defeated and the camps were discovered by the Russian and Allied forces.

I'm certainly not defending Nick Griffin but if we are to attack him & his party, I'd prefer if it were accurate.

Band of Brothers agrees with you.
I trust that.

V.Poor, please see me after class.

Not up to your usual high standards.

now bend over, boy!

I think Oliver is right... those who have turned to the BNP don't give a flying fuck what the audience or panel on Question time think....they hate those kind of people. Nick will be seen as a hero, a plucky underdog standing up for himself (and them) against the establishment.

These people are disaffected, they have lives that no one in power or no one who wants to be in power (and 99% of us) could ever understand, their claims to be not represented are well founded....they have serious issues in their lives which the middle class intelligentsia could never comprehend so just brush-off as ignorant, common and unimportant.

It is entirely the fault of the current government, not just the labour party but the other two as well for not listening to these people, for not enagaging with them, that the BNP has managed to reach it's current status...too busy chasing votes and attending think-tanks. And once again as Oliver said this is as much an issue of class as an issue of race, possibly more so.

Nick's a sort of interesting bloke he is without doubt the cleverest person in the BNP (not hard I would imagine), I wish he had had the opportunity to expand on his wider policies, hopefully then all his fans who tuned into see him would realise that beyond his retterick and nervous bravado there really is no content ...they really don't have any plans further than next week and that him and his party wouldn't haven't got a clue what to do if they gained any significant power.

I thought Baroness Varsi was good, possibly the best panellist, until Dimbelby uncovered her own blatant homophobia which wasn't too far off the BNP's own position. I was a bit shocked frankly at her hasty wriggling on that one.

seriously. forgot about the wriggling off the hook on homophobia...

The varsi homophobic thing raises a tricky issue.
The conservative core of the muslim community's views on homosexuality aren't the most tolerant. Varsi had to be careful not to piss off her base.

Eh? I didn't see the program and I can't bring myself to 'youtube' it but what the fuck is going on here?
Is Baroness Varsi a homophobe or is she being considerate to a section of the electorate? Is one an excuse for the other? Is it better to be intellectually dishonest than discriminatory? Someone please help me.
There's a thread elsewhere attacking someone for holding possibly similar views, it could also be claimed that Jan Moir is appeasing her 'base'.

...thugh that's not to say that conservative christians are gay-friendly either. Was just disappointed with varsi is all.

That hasn't really got much to do with it. If, yet again, I've missed the more subtle points, just let me know.

BNP fuckers, Winds me right up....being ex-Forces its disgusting they've tried to Hijack the whole British forces thing.....you won't believe the different colours and natioalities in the british army......BNP fuckers get off and walk your own way to the nazi ideal!!
(fuelled by 2/3rds of a lovely red wine!!! :-) )

Is Baroness Varsi a homophobe or is she being considerate to a section of the electorate? Is one an excuse for the other? Is it better to be intellectually dishonest than discriminatory? Someone please help me.

Since you put it like that - yes - she is totally a homophobe.

Finally sat down to watching QT.

I am absolutely speechless at the attitude and political ineptidude of Nick Griffin.

Griffin looked like, exactly what he is, a duplicitous shape shifting conniving twat.
unfortunately, nobody really addressed the elephant in the room. why his party has 1 million votes and 2 MEP positions.
this was addressed by alan davies in the following programme.

unfortunately, for some reason, there are people who feel challenged and under threat and ignored by the mainstream political parties. unfortunately they use language like "it's no longer a white man's country". unfortunately they vote for parties that appeal to this side of them. unfortunately they vote for parties that don't allow people to express their love regardless of gender.

How "unfortunate" is that?

as a friend pointed out, people should have let up, given him normal questions and let him hang himself with his own rope. he showed how inconceivably bigoted he was and how random and out of touch his views are when he answered that stephen gately/jan moir article question. first he went off about freedom of speach (okay, fair enough) then about the liberal media (uhm...) then about how he finds gays "creepy" (i'm loosing you, nick) and "repulsive" (there we go, that's the nick i know!) and finally about how they shouldn't teach sex to kids in school, especially gay sex (wha? what school did you go to?).

. . . but most of my gay friends are creepy and repulsive ?

Hm.

I thionk one thing we have to understand about this particular TV appearance is that Griffin wasn't trying to appeal to the particular audience that was there, or indeed the sort of people on this more or less London-centric forum.

Take what was said about the people that voted BNP on the show: I'm sure Griffin will have appealed to quite a few more people who identify with the 'underdog' persona he tried to affect against the other politicians, and there was also a simmering class issue. They were all firmly members of the establishment. He didn't come across like that at all.

Straw came over the worst--he had no bite and was surprisingly insecure when he spoke, but representing, rather unpersuasively, the current government on one of Griffin's main subjects. Huhne was mostly uncontroversial and a bit boring, but clearly not someone who had to justify himself on a lot of things (easy when you haven't been in government for so long). I genuinely can't remember much that he said, except for his very significant description (whether true or not) how the LibDems had reduced the BNP share of the vote in one place. Warsi was assured and persuasive (easy when you haven't been in government for so long), except for that homophobia wobble, and strict with Griffin without being overbearing. Greer had a nice line in being studiedly patronising, carried off some good jokes with good timing, but, again, was very assured.

I don't think that people who vote Griffin are likely to be very assured. They'll be full of fears, on which the BNP plays. They'll feel that Griffin did well going into such a lions' den of upper-class people. I think that even though more of his offensive, wrong, and bizarre views came out as the show went on, that he was challenged less on them towards the end. Trying to see it through the eyes of a potential BNP voter, the whole picture in the end reminded me of someone showing that he can't be persuaded by pressure and bullying (yes, the audience should have tried to lay into him less).

I thought that at times, Griffin played quite skilfully on his victim status, although that was pretty much the only thing he did well. He was extremely nervous right from the off, pretend-laughed far too much at some of the snipes directed at him, like a marginalised child desperately trying to belong with the cool kids, and obviously talked disgusting nonsense, with weak 'evidence'.

But in a TV programme especially, where apparently viewers take in very little of what is actually said, the emotional subtext plays a very important role. On that level, to a certain audience, I'm sure he will have appealed. And don't forget that this programme will probably have given him considerably better name recognition than before. The 'oxygen of publicity' is a real quality.

Overall, I don't agree with the BBC's decision to give him a platform. Yes, on the one hand you can say that had people actually read "Mein Kampf" before the NSDAP gained a double-digit vote, that much harm might have been averted. But I really don't think that there is any danger, now, of such a party ever gaining a share of the vote high enough to really threaten government in this country, or indeed in Germany. On the other hand, I don't think that that is really their aim right now. They aim to gain a solid foothold in elections other than those with very low turnout, to establish more than a fleeting presence (remember that fascistoid parties have popped up and been prohibited or have disappeared on and off in most European countries for the last couple of decades).

So, on the other hand, I certainly think that there are plenty of grounds for denying the BNP such a platform, such as their discriminatory stance against certain legally protected minorities. Denying them a platform doesn't have anything to do with denying them 'freedom of speech', a phrase that's often abused, anyway. They'll still have freedom of speech in a lot of places, they're just not given a major televised platform.

As the quotes that exist of Griffin on camera, combined with his astonishing answer that he cannot now 'explain why he held these views, or why he changed his mind' (not an attempt at an exact quote) show, the BNP are undoubtedly worried of falling further foul of anti-discrimination laws, as those would provide a legal basis, short of outright proscription of the party, of denying them such a platform. Griffin's predictably ridiculous squirmings last night showed up that strategy quite clearly, I thought. I thought what their real views are came out clearly enough, too, but again, I don't think that this was necessarily a successful programme. I didn't enjoy watching it for one second.

racist

racist

Am I the only one getting a wee bit tired of Tynan's *faux *fascist schtick?

Is Baroness Varsi a homophobe , yet again, I've missed the more subtle points, just let me know.

Warsi.

ineptidude

Like the typo.

I kind of agree with you, but as I'm sure you'd agree, that's not a reason not to take him seriously.

racist

Wordyist.

Am I the only one getting a wee bit tired of Tynan's *faux *fascist schtick?

No, I am, too. I'm the first person to love bad running gags, but even the worst one wears thin after a while. I have often laughed about the 'racist' reply to almost everything, but I only find it funny very rarely now, really. Let's think of some new jokes.

Finally sat down to watching QT.

I am absolutely speechless at the attitude and political ineptidude of Nick Griffin.

yet according to a poll this morning 20% of the population would consider voting for him....not as inept as you think?

yet according to a poll this morning 20% of the population would consider voting for him....not as inept as you think?

That would confirm my impression that he knows his audience. Do you have a link to that poll?

Found it immediately, of course:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/oct/23/bnp-poll-boost-question-time

unfortunately, if you invite MEPs of other political parties with similar or less representation on to the show then to not invite another just because their views are disagreeable is inconsistent.

I do see this, but I subscribe to the notion that the BNP is itself inconsistent with the other parties. I'm not by any means a strong defender of the mainstream parties, but they are still rather preferable.

Am I the only one getting a wee bit tired of Tynan's *faux *fascist schtick?

Tired or . . . . . . jealous ?

racist.

No, I am, too. I'm the first person to love bad running gags, but even the worst one wears thin after a while. I have often laughed about the 'racist' reply to almost everything, but I only find it funny very rarely now, really. Let's think of some new jokes.

I have designed you a pair of glasses, put these on and line up the word racist (in white) on the glasses with the word racist in the post in front of you - once aligned perfectly the word racist will disappear leaving you with a white page - that is after all what you are after isn't it, a pure white page.

racist.

No, I am, too. I'm the first person to love bad running gags, but even the worst one wears thin after a while. I have often laughed about the 'racist' reply to almost everything, but I only find it funny very rarely now, really. Let's think of some new jokes.

This forum has a whole klan of racists.

Collectivenounsfuckyeah!

Am I the only one getting a wee bit tired of Tynan's *faux *fascist schtick?

It was funnier when it was more subtle. Sorry Mr t, but it's like a comedian who's run out of the material that made them funny to begin with, turning out super offensive stuff to shock and appall.

I'm currently preparing my 'pre-summer 2009 tynan's best bits' bootleg - it'll go for a packet on eBay...

Unless you mean it, in which case...

It was funnier when it was more subtle. Sorry Mr t, but it's like a comedian who's run out of the material that made them funny to begin with, turning out super offensive stuff to shock and appall.

You've hurt me.

:(

I am going out to buy some crisps . . . . . . .