Dave Yates framebuilding course

Yes!

exclamation mark! more exclamation mark!

I have switched the focus of this thread towards an avatar. Skully - I apologise.

Any news on the frame building front, dude?

It's just a bit of fun! Normal service will resume shortly.

......But you aren't getting a place until 2011 anyway - 2010 is fully booked up. ....

Oh aren't I? Oh is it? Is your name Debbie Yates? Hmm?

I have declined the offer of a place in September 2010 (I was on a cancellation waiting list, you see Tea_Bee...)

Turns out the conversation that started about framebuidling courses ended up being a much more deep n meaningful. As a consequence things are a bit sunnier this morning @ Chez Skully.

I might take a place on the course in 2011 all being well. The money thing is a big consideration at the moment, I'll have lots of building work to pay for over the next year or so.

Thanks for all your help and the positive advice, people, particularly Tommy and others' salient question of whether I actually need to go on Dave's course, or if some kind of course in the metallurgical arts in general could be more suitable/affordable/local.

Glad to hear that stuff at Chez Skully is looking rosier. Now....can I have first dibs on your frame building skillz if it turns into more than just a course? :D

:-)

Ive done it.

Really good course in that you end up with a bike (frame) that you built. One thing he said at the start of the week was "dont expect to be a frame builder by the end of the week". I got my frame and forks done to a reasonable standard and those whove seen it built up didnt believe that i hadnt just bought it. That said there is a lot to do in the 5 days and he doesnt mess around explaining every last detail. Leaving at the end of the week, I could have built another frame (had i had a jig and all the gubbins to go with it) but would need to learn the uqick routes to building which he alluded to i.e. experience. Stuff which took me and the guy i was doing it with ages he did in 10 mins!

This isnt a learn to frame build course. Ring him up and he'll tell you the same. His advice if you wanted to learn to build was, make a jig, buy a load of tubing, a vice and get going.

heres the end result

http://www.flickr.com/photos/14606460@N00/311291051/in/set-72157594407919151/

Dont know how to put the pics in.

lardy,
Thanks. Yes, I'm well aware that a week doing that isn't going to make you an 'expert' nor anything other than someone who's hung about a framebuilder for a week, and pretty much just 'had a bash' at buidling a frame, if you like.

I would like to do the course. I imagine it would make me a whole lot humbler about what it is to be a Good Framebuilder. I would like to start learning about something else ... it'd be just that: a start.

Its well worth doing to see what work goes into building.

Id do it again if it werent as expensive.

Daves a top bloke too. Very funny with a lot of stories.

I've done the course and built a frame there.
Here's my advice - First off, treat it as a once in a lifetime thing. Unless you have space and access to a full workshop you will not be able to do it again. Accept that and you'll be fine.
Since you treat it as a once in a lifetime thing build something unique and for yourself.
Don't build something you can go out and buy anyway - so don't sit down and build a lugged fixed gear frame - you'll end up paired up with someone building something amazing an end up kicking yourself for being so unimaginative.
Do research frame building obsessively for a year or so beforehand. Haunt the frame building forums, ask stupid questions, read suzie Jacksons blog, read allt he construction blogs you can find, become an obsessive fan of Steve Garro, Richard Sachs, Sacha White, Robin Mather and their ilk!
Know your lugs and fittings, make absolutely certain months in advance that you know exactly what you are going to build and where every fitting is going to go -detail is everything. There's no point in turning up and then realising that you had forgotten to get Dave to order the stainless bottle cage reinfocing diamonds you'd seen somewhere else...
Dave has various standard tube sets in stock, don't be dogmatic about tubes, but if you want something fancy like an hourglass back end be sure to order it in advance and be prepared to argue with him about using it!
Dave is a fabulous teacher, I hadn't done any brazing since school, but by the end of the second day I was able to filet braze under his supervision. By the end of the fourth day I was doing joints on my own, but still made mistakes - his help in rectifying mistakes is really vital.
If you can, get some practice in with a torch beforehand - take a night class in jewellery making for example, that will teach you a lot about heat control.

It will cost you a lot of money and you have 4 days to build the frame - it's just enough time. You'll end up doing the fine finishing work at home.
The costs come down to this - travel to Lincolnshire (not especially cheap) - daily travel to the workshop (free if you take a bike, but logistically taking a bike, plus clothing etc. can be tricky - not to mention taking a famre and forks home at the end as well). There are no buses and it's a long walk from the nearest accommodation so you'll either need a car or two taxi fares a day!
I stayed in the local pub, it's a dump and overpriced, but it was comfortable enough.
I ate out in the evenings, this adds up. At lunchtimes I made sandwiches and ate them at the end of the runway watching the jets take off.

Conclusions: Fantastic experience, makes you realise how challenging making a frame actually is.
Cost: Seriously expensive, you could have Robin Mather build you something incredible for the same money with about the same wait time. I'd guess course cost (at whatever it is now) + materials (allow £350-400); accommodation (allow £150-200); food (allow £150); travel (???)
You can get value for money if you build something uber blingy. It doesn't get much more expensive to do something really pimpy. The base tube prices don't go up much for example (about £50-80 difference from memory).

Alternatives? There is a course in the USA at the UBI which by the time you've done the numbers is probably about the same price.

Any more questions just ask.

"so don't sit down and build a lugged fixed gear frame"

DOH!

I've been thinking of doing something similar, although I don't have time at the moment. There are lots of general metal work courses in London which you'd probably enjoy in the meantime, would be a lot cheaper and which would give you some good skills for whenever you do a frame building course.

Here's mine:

some details:

Cheers for the advice AlexB!

I'm doing the course in March and just got the pack with all the pre information (not very much) the other day. I've decided aftre loads of deliberation to make a lugged cross bike with mounts for mudguards and stuff so it can be used for winter road training as well. Also hopefully, if I can afford it get him to fit it with S&S couplings. I'm going to send them an e mail asking what tubing and lugs I can use so I can do a bit of research into what I want to use now.

Alex did you go in with your geometry all designed before hand?

Is there a wide variety of lugs and stuff to use?

Also does anyone know of any suitable metal working course I could do beforehand in London to get a bit of a head start?

AlexB
Sound advice, really very very helpful. Indeed. x10! Thanks.

I wasn't intending on building a track frame, more like a fillet brazed compact tourer ... hang on... Doh!

See what you mean about costs...

cheers

PS your bike is wonderful.

Oh yeah, and Daccordi keep us posted please, it'd interesting to hear how you get along.

Some lovely contributions to this thread!

Cheers for the advice AlexB!

I'm doing the course in March and just got the pack with all the pre information (not very much) the other day. I've decided aftre loads of deliberation to make a lugged cross bike with mounts for mudguards and stuff so it can be used for winter road training as well. Also hopefully, if I can afford it get him to fit it with S&S couplings. I'm going to send them an e mail asking what tubing and lugs I can use so I can do a bit of research into what I want to use now.

Alex did you go in with your geometry all designed before hand?

Is there a wide variety of lugs and stuff to use?

Also does anyone know of any suitable metal working course I could do beforehand in London to get a bit of a head start?

First off, if you are going down the route of using lugs you end up with fixed geometry. In other words lugs are generally available in fairly limited angles, so typically 74 deg parallel, 73 deg parallel and there are some that will give you slacker angles. Tube diameter has to match the lugs, so if you choose a particular lug set you end up being restricted pretty closely to those angles and those tubing diameters.
Based on what I saw, if you go down that route then definately get onto the frame forums and start asking questions!

If you go the filet brazed route you can build to any angle, you can combine tubes of different sizes and it's no more work because filet or lugs, you still have to mitre the tubes and you still have to stick them together. A filet takes time to build up, lugs are a wee bit quicker, but a filet offers nowhere for bad brazing to hide! After you've brazed in lugs you have to clean up all the shorelines.
Add the two together and I think there's no difference between the time taken to put a lugged frame together compared to a filet brazed frame.

My geometry was based on two things. I took my most comfortable bike and made a list of things i want to change, so it ended up something like this:
Wanted, more relaxed seat angle, longer stays, more relaxed head angle.
Wanted lower rear stay cluster to allow me to lower my saddle bag mount and thus lower CofG for luggage.
Wanted space for full mudguards and 28c tyres = long drop brakes.
Length of frame (i.e. front triangle dimensions) I left to Dave to determine.
Fork rake I left to Dave to determine.
Tubeset I left to Dave to determine (mine's mostly 653).
I chose my fork crown, my dropouts and the braze-ons (almost all of which are stainless steel). I had them delivered to me at home in advance and polished them up before the course.
Let Dave know well in advance about the S&S couplings. He does do them in his classes, but I've been told that he puts them into the tubeset before the student starts to save time!
Are you going to put discs on the bike?
If I was building a do-it-all bike it would definately have disc brakes.

AlexB
Sound advice, really very very helpful. Indeed. x10! Thanks.

I wasn't intending on building a track frame, more like a fillet brazed compact tourer ... hang on... Doh!

See what you mean about costs...

cheers

PS your bike is wonderful.

Thanks for the compliments.
As for that difficult obsessive balance...My family drove up to meet me at the end of the course. We rented a small flat for one night and the kids spent the day on the beach at Skegness and went out and did a few other things. They had a great time and then we packed everything into the car and drove home together.
I'd say offer the family a weekend in Bruges or somewhere as compensation for missing Daddy for a week (I know how much my kids miss me when I'm away).
My frame building course was a surprise 40th birthday present from my wife.

Wow, great looking bike