Danger! HGVs

+1

Also, what about campaigns directed at HGV drivers - given the comments already made about fault...

damn, too slow...

Hi, Kate - thanks for the original post.

I'd still argue that these posters are aimed a novices - so the message needs to give them context and explanation. I just think saying 'Danger HGV' is just a loose term for too many would-be-cyclists and that it might not even mean anything to some people.

It's good that the stickers are going up, I just think they'd be more effective if they had an image of a HGV, and that they said something along the lines of "too many drivers pay fuck all attention to you, so make sure you know what to look out for, who to stay away from, and where to seek sound advice."

Ideally, I'd like to see HGVs operate in central London during particular hours to keep them off our roads. How likely I'll ever witness such a step I don't know (painfully slim, I guess - but gathering evidence is going to be useful).

Hope I'm being useful rather than a pain.

I think this a great idea.

Simple and straight to the point.

Anything longer would be lost on the reader.

Ideally, I'd like to see HGVs operate in central London during particular hours to keep them off our roads. How likely I'll ever witness such a step I don't know (painfully slim, I guess - but gathering evidence is going to be useful).

start writing letters. getting local mps involved. gett parlimentary groups (there'sa cycling group of mps), get day motions, that kind of thing.

it's a slog. but i'm willing.

Hi
I'm so sorry for your loss, and I think it's great that you're actively campaigning to save more people from the fate that befell Eilidh.

Thing is I think this campaign is aiming to save more people from being crushed by HGVs by decreasing the number of bikes on the road, and I don't think that's the right way to go.

The way I see it, the more bikes that are on the road, the safer we are. Drivers that are continually confronted with us - as in Denmark - are more careful. There's safety in numbers and research has proved this. Plus you have all of the connected benefits to society of less congestion, less costs to the NHS, improvement to air quality, etc.

If I were to be killed cycling, I wouldn't want that to put people off. Instead I would want more dialogue around what can be done to make cyclists safer. Modifications to HGVs, better training for drivers, and more bikes on the road for safety in numbers. Not less cyclists.

Why dont all HGV's have a cab like the bin lorries.... Have you noticed they have glass that almost goes to the bottom of the cab, giving driver more close up and surround visibility.

Also, maybe a very simple thing... All Bin lorries have more than one person in the cab. Surely 4 eyes are better than 2 ?

I guess we are trying shock tactics cos nothing else has made a difference. Cynthia Barlow, Chair of Roadpeace, had her daughter killed by an HGV 10 years ago. The same truck killed another cyclist a year later, yards from the same place. She has been campaiging ever since. This campaigning is not working. The main problem is, as I see now, that DESPITE ALL THE EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY the police concluded it was Eilidhs fault. This is completely ridiculous - ok Im biased - but its still ridiculous looking objectively at the evidence presented, whoever you are. So nothing is going to change whilst the police, the CPS, and Boris, think it is the cyclists fault. Which they will continue to do unless we challenge them and get evidence to the contrary (cameras, witnesses).
Yes, of course we should be targeting the drivers, but not really the drivers, its the companies. Because the companies set the framework, they have the power. They employ the drivers. And they set requirments for drivers. How hard is that though. When I am told by the Director of the Parliamentary Advisory Committee for Transport Safety that the govt cannont insist on better safety measures for lorries because it would be contrary to EU law under free trade regs. This is a massive issue and it needs pushing by the govt cos the lorry companies are going to do nothing voluntarily, unless we can name and shame them ie with cameras, or prosecute them. When a driver who kills someone does not even go to court, this will keep happening. When a driver who fails his eyesight test - to the degree that it is less than half as good as it should be - and he kills someone and the police recommend a charge of driving with uncorrected defective vision - of which the penalty is 3 points and a £60 fine, this will still keep happening. There is absoultely NO INCENTIVE for lorries to stop killing cyclists. I agree we should be doing everything. Targeting cyclists, drivers, companies, and the govt. Im trying..................its a big job.

Speak to Buffalo Bill if you haven't already.

Speak to Buffalo Bill if you haven't already.

She has!

I think the stickers are a good idea. Fast and to the point. it's what you need in a busy environment. At least it grabs attention. You could then do a follow up campaign with more info that will explain the situation better. You have to educate in steps. As long as the follow up contains the original message/imagery people will make the connection.
The tfl ads are rubbish anyway and I'm sure do nothing to encourage or discourage cycling.

My personal view is that it's not just the HGV's. I find the small vans/light trucks far worse. Normally driven by people with no extra training other than a standard car licence.

On a positive note. I think most bus drivers do an excellent job in providing space and keeping an eye out for us. I often feel safer around them than a load of in-a-rush cars.

She has!
Hence the move to direct action ;-)

One of the problems is that the police and the CPS are required to go for whatever is most likely to secure a conviction, and if they cannot then they will drop the case. This system is what results in drivers being slapped with points and a fine - because no higher charge is likely to result in a successful conviction. It's also what results in killer drivers being let off. To be honest I don't know that any better alternative to this system exists, because you can't have police and courts tied up for months wasting public money and resources on unwinnable cases.

I think that the answer has to involve changing the law so that any collision between a motorist and a cyclist is presumed to be the motorists fault (automatically bringing criminal as well civil responsibility so that charges can be brought and convictions easily secured) unless it can be proven otherwise. It would make sense to extend this so that motorcyclists benefited too if hit by cars or trucks and pedestrians benefited if hit by cyclists. The old sail before steam idea. The point would be to make convictions easier and cheaper to secure, and therefore more likely to happen. This would result in drivers taking a lot more care of more vulnerable road users, and who knows, it might make cyclists take more care at pedestrian crossings. Fortunately similar laws exist on the continent, so there might be a) a large amount of data to indicate whether such a law would be effective, and b) the chance of bringing such a law in via the European Union should it not be possible to bring it in via Parliament.

I work at IMG, and there are still a good number of bikes, including mine, in the garage with Eilidh's memorial spokecard in the wheels. I didn't know her (though I met her once or twice) but it's clear that she meant a lot to people who did. It's good that you are fighting, Kate, but you need to devote your energy on the right battle. Stickers that scare people off cycling altogether make us all less safe, not more. After all, the more people cycle the safer cycling is.

Have you considered suing the truck operator? The burden of proof is lower than in criminal proceedings, and if you won significant damages you'd not only get the publicity, but also funding to continue your campaign.

Anyway I hope you take this as constructive criticism, rather than just criticism.

Hence the move to direct action ;-)

No, I hadn't heard anything about this until I saw this thread. I do know that Eilidh's family are desperately frustrated by the indifference of the authorities. I remember Edward Newstead's family experiencing similar.

I personally don't see why anyone would object to these stickers. I could understand if they said 'danger killer hgvs' or 'danger cyclist-killing hgv' or similar...

Ha ha Buffalo Bill. I wanted to put "Death by HGV: The TfL Lottery"

My friend said it was too controversial! This sticker is not my main focus. A friend of Eilidhs has done it after we were discussing how cr@p the boris posters were and the safety vid that they published. I just wanted to put it on your site and see if anyone would help spread it around.
Yes. I agree re the law. They do it on the continent, burden of proof should be on the most hazardous (and safest for the occupier) vehicle. The main actions I see now are:

1. Change the law so the default situations is the most vulnerable assumed innocent (most difficult and will take ages but have egs abroad)
   
2. Separate HGVs and cyclists in rush hour (the simplest and quickest and most effective) stats show most of deaths in rush hour (obvious)
   
3. Vehicle design and driver education the best it can be - proximity sensors, alarms, cameras in cabs etc etc. This is all done, just needs implementation, and the will to do it.
   
   

Personally Ive spent 6mths kicking ass with the police which has taken huge amount of time, effort and and downright tenacity, and now Im trying to finish our film which was orginally to find witnesses but is now an educational campaign (?), would love to cover all these issues and show the obvious solutions, its just become a massive project now. Buffalow Bill features. Clip is on vimeo - think its been posted on here before http://www.vimeo.com/4545070
. Focus has changed since then.
Anyway, enough ramblings. Thanks for offers of help.
Ktee

1+ on the law, in the Netherlands, the law put bicycle first over motorised vehicle, unless proven otherwise.

hopefully drivers will less likely think they can get away with it by accelerating away from the scene of collison.

Ha ha Buffalo Bill. I wanted to put "Death by HGV: The TfL Lottery"

Ha! Even better!

Or this:

edit... been said...

I've just watched TfL's film they released today. Apparently thhey're called LGVs. Whatever. Was all a bit focussed on, again, putting the responsibility firmly on the shoulders of cyclists. We all know there are good LGV drivers, but we all know there are some nutters too.

KTee all the points above (1-3) are to be supported. I don;t understand why, like in Central Paris (I believe) LGVs aren;t banned, say, within the congestion zone, during the day.

Well done with all your work so far.

I agree with Bill that essentially the stickers are a Good Thing. I didn't mean to belittle your efforts in any way.

I've just watched TfL's film they released today. Apparently thhey're called LGVs. Whatever. Was all a bit focussed on, again, putting the responsibility firmly on the shoulders of cyclists. We all know there are good LGV drivers, but we all know there are some nutters too.

It's a bit confusing, but a couple of years ago, Heavy Goods Vehicles were re-classified as Large Goods Vehicles (it's an EU thing). More confusingly, there was also Light Goods Vehicle classification in the UK, don't know what that has been re-classified as!

class 7 I think Bill.

3.5 ton van e.t.c no need for operators licensing but the MOT test can't be done at a normal garage.

In case anyone reading this hasn't seen the memorial ride video, it's http://vimeo.com/3691223

It's tragic, but beautiful beyond words. It was an honour to be on that ride

Cynthia Barlow, Chair of Roadpeace.... has been campaiging ever since. This campaigning is not working. The main problem is, as I see now, that DESPITE ALL THE EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY the police concluded it was Eilidhs fault. This is completely ridiculous

...its the companies. Because the companies set the framework, they have the power. They employ the drivers. And they set requirments for drivers. How hard is that though. When I am told by the Director of the Parliamentary Advisory Committee for Transport Safety that the govt cannont insist on better safety measures for lorries because it would be contrary to EU law under free trade regs. This is a massive issue and it needs pushing by the govt cos the lorry companies are going to do nothing voluntarily.....

There is absoultely NO INCENTIVE for lorries to stop killing cyclists.

You have it spot on.
So did the hearing go in favour of the driver? thats shocking and such and easy cop out! i thought they had no hard evidence either way?!

It's a very direct tactic but the message needs to be consistant strong brand to be heard amoungst all the noise, and kept on and on and on..

You are right campaigning is like running through treacle, treacle that just gets deeper, Cynthia Barlow has dedicated a large part of her life to raise awareness and get correct mirrors fitted to lorries from 1 company.. it's a drop in the scale of things.

Is there a single place to report dangerous driving by an HGV company/driver, besides the police?

Is there a single place to report dangerous driving by an HGV company/driver, besides the police?

The 1st instance is to the owners/operators of the vehicle.

Now i know i sound negative but i bet they don't log those calls,

For any gain to be made Kate would need a sponsor, a person in a position of power who is prepared to fight for her. these people work on numbers and numbers only. Give them a graph showing the number of Accidents/Complaints with HGVs has risen, the biggest rise is within the construction sector and Tescos and European lorrys etc etc THEN they have a corner to fight.

In fact one central number to call for all lorry related incidents would work, Dial 56779 and leave the company, registration and time & nature of incident