What would you do if the forum had a subscription fee (to post classifieds, etc)?

I'm also concerned about how it might change the relationship betwen myself and the community.

A minor point that might not even be worth mentioning, but if you charge for certain aspects of the forum, some people may then feel you have certain obligations to meet (e.g. uptime), that they would not feel a right to had they not paid for the service.

I'm sure you could put something in the T&Cs to cover yourself, but maybe a psychological shift for some.

Current costs are circa £3,300 per year, approx £275 per month. Circa, approx... because of currency rates mostly.

Solicit donations in the currency your costs are in?

(d) which is treating my girl to a nice dinner or two when we finally go to Paris together.

I vote (d). We probably owe her as much for taking up so much of your time ;)

i think sending VB and his wonderful girlfriend to Paris is the way forward myself...

Yep,

I would donate towards FedExing them to France. What size box does VB fit in?

Only a Sith Lord deals in polars.

I've never thought of myself as a Sith Lord.

Lord Blackfoot reqeusts a meeting sire.

I like the sound of that... Lord Blackfoot!!!

Very impressive..

Anyhow, heat off on the money front, over £400 has been donated in the last 2 days, and that pushes the doom out another 2 months to 3.5 months away. The point is, I know I can always beg for cash, I know I'll always get it... but that's a really crap way to have to survive, and the higher fees mean it will happen every few months. It already feels tired and old. If subscriptions can do something to give some perks to key users as well as give them priority in classifieds, and it additionally funds the server, then it just looks win-win... I get to not have to don the begging cap, helps me keep my dignity a bit, and I have so little of the stuff I'd like to keep what I have.

200+ people vote yes to £3 per year, why is the money raised over the last couple of days not more than £600 rather than £400?
Can you just make the donate button flash when you need money? A bit like the Batphone.

I didn't notice the donation button until now.

Make it flash for new members, or make it bigger in the nursery?

Forum members invest huge amounts of time in the forum. They generate content, support each other and put on events. What about the member who writes threads to help new members, or the member who designs, reccies and runs group events or rides. They have all made significant investments into the forum. Maybe they are as big a investment as VBs, maybe they aren't, but they shouldn't be ignored. Thus I feel I have to oppose the idea of VB making a profit, because if he does we all should, I'm talking principally, not practically. Maybe not every one deserves the same cut, but if VB started making sizeable sums of money from members using a board where they provide the content I would be worried to say the least.

By the same token VB shouldn't have to stump up and pay for the forum on his own. Infact I would argue that VB shouldn't contribute financialy at all, that all his technical stuff has earnt him the right to not pay. I don't think its earnt him the right to be paid. VB may well make the site run, and be responsible for it, ... That said if VB wanted to take some money from any profit I wouldn't complain, .

Forum members would not exist witout the forum, and the forum would not exist without VB/V/ DK

Yer don't get owt for nowt in this life.

No problem at all paying to support the infrastructure of this site.

I have no concerns whatsoever that VB will administer the funds fairly and appropriately.

+100000000000

There's a lot of talk of principles and taking the moral high ground, and how the users of this forum (us) generate the content, but if this forum disappears tomorrow, who sets up another one. Who has the technical skill/expertise and good will to keep a forum this size going. Who will make sure that this forum comes out top in the google search so our conversations can be read by those hungry for fixed gear knowledge. Certainly not me...
I've got no problem with VB making money from the forum, because he created it, he had the idea and he produced a space where we could all gather and information be disseminated.
And personally as stated before if your gonna quibble over £3 a year when your gonna spend however much on an anodized seatpost clamp, which fits the exact shade of puce you've painted your frame, then you need to gain a sense of perspective

+1 googleplex

JAMES: I'm not suggesting we don't pay, I think thats fine. The members should cover the cost of the forum. Its if the forum starts buying VB a yacht that I have a problem. I know its unlikely, but its the principle.

I think we should probably buy him a yacht, if that's what he wants.

Baron Blackfoot has a certain gravitas to it

~Rather than everyone simply saying how amazing VB is why don't we actually volunteer to fucking help?

If I could do web shite, I'd take some of the load. (on my face).

I think like you, there are many people here willing to volunteer but are unable due to technical skill/know-how..

Baron Blackfoot has a certain gravitas to it

My votes are for the following titles.

Monseigneur Blackfoot
Imperator Blackfoor
Wang Blackfoot
Kaiser Blackfoot

Apparently Despot was a real title in Byzantium Serbia.

Cool.

I like the sound of that... Lord Blackfoot!!!

Very impressive..

Lord of the flies , more like :)

actually, you'd make a better town cryer than a lord

"hell yeah, hell, yeah, hell yeah!!"

200+ people vote yes to £3 per year, why is the money raised over the last couple of days not more than £600 rather than £400?

It is today... it's now at £620... in the paypal. Which is on top of the money in the bank account which is... er, did I say £300 earlier? (I don't have the spreadsheet to hand.)

To the general question: Why can't we have a thermometer thing showing financial status?

Some answers:
1) It's not supposed to be non-profit forever, if it makes money then cool, so long as we don't go bust in the meantime. There is no constitution that says "we must have no profit ever", and nor will there ever be such a thing.

2) Whereas Jelsoft built into vBulletin an automatic system for managing subscriptions, they never built such a thing for donations. Subscriptions can talk to the PayPal API and do things (like instantly give you your perk), whereas with donors the money just goes into Paypal and I have to work out who sent what, and then update the spreadsheet, etc

I only do the accounts monthly as it's a pain in the arse, and I don't like the idea of doing the accounts twice... once in real life, and then once on here to make the thermometer work.

So if we had a thermometer/meter thing... I'd have to do a lot of coding first, and then I'd have to still have some extra manual effort. I'm not enthusiastic about either.

3) It's been argued that subscriptions would put off newbies... I don't think so as the newbies wouldn't encounter the subscription until they wanted to sell or do something a while after being here.

But with the meter the newbies would instantly and then persistently be confronted by what I feel to be a pushy thing... "give me money you fucks, I'm starving here", says the server... but fuck that, says I. I hate such things, only a small slice of the community are users to the degree that they have an interest in donating as they feel they get the value from it that justifies it. But to reach out to those who would both want to and could afford to, we would've guilt-tripped everyone including those newbies who keept the place 'interesting'.

4) It would be ugly.

So I dislike the guilt thing, and I dislike how it will look, and I dislike that I'd have to invest more time and effort to make it exist, and I dislike setting a standard that implies money could never be made... and really I just think, nah, cannot be bothered going down that road. I can understand why you'd want it, but we're not a charity and I can't understand why I would do it.

now as much as I like being given regal titles, current faves Baron Blackfoot (got to love the B's), Kaiser Blackfoot, and possibly Wang Blackfoot, lets keep this thread on track.

I've just been researching fonts for you, Corny... Baron Blackfoot it is... ;]

dude for the decals, just plain ol' blackfoot is good enough..

Solicit donations in the currency your costs are in?

Servers are cheap in the USA, but require payment with a credit card (not debit weirdly).

If we took USD in donations we would need a US credit card not to be forced to convert back to GBP.

As it currently stands, we take GBP, pay with a UK card, and then the currency difference takes effect.

Unless we're totally US based (credit card, donations, etc), then at some point you pass through exchange rates which make the total variable.

VB - Couldn't it just be a matter of, say, every 3 months a quick post to show how big the honey pot is?

VB - Couldn't it just be a matter of, say, every 3 months a quick post to show how big the honey pot is?

This is already done.

But it's irrelevant, you want to use that information to stem your contributions based on the your view that the only costs are material and that so long as material costs are just covered then no more need ever be given. The result of which is that you specifically wish to see transparency so that it is used to actively deny the potential to make a profit should that even be possible. As I said earlier, I don't think it's possible, and it's not a motive... but fuck you Paul Michel if you think I'm going to act in a way to please you that goes against a simple notion that I'm allowed to make a profit. I'm not going to act in a way that denies it on principal.

Ah fuck it... your alias can go back to being banned you selfish motherfucker.

And calm... anyhow, social implications. I may piss people off by fervently banning their aliases rather than choosing to turn a blind eye hoping that they'd "got it" whilst in exile.

oooh, i met the famous PM yesterday then!? I didn't even realise

Was that him??? Haha!

Ah fuck it... your alias can go back to being banned you selfish motherfucker.

"I don't want to say you can't keep away, but this is a long good-bye ..."

Whistler, 'The End'

;)

er... I feel like a small child who's just come downstairs to find everyone in the house dead from some weird virus..

..but I just wanted to say after reading the last coupla pages that I think the people who want this to continue without subscriptions or are arguing about how much profit VB is allowed to make are lame. The forum's massive now and the work involved to keep it running let alone administrate it must be considerable. I also know that a small number of people (I'm not among them) have been very generous in helping out when money was needed, and I'd like to see those people not have to continue bailing the forum out. I think people are taking the forum's existence for granted.

As far as paying contributors for copy - please, the reason people spend a lot of time on here and contribute (myself included) is to enjoy having a laugh and comparing knowledge and keeping in touch. You can post anything you want on here within reason and let's face it most of it's bollocks. The idea that contributors should be singled out as worthy of payment for helping grow the forum is daft - as far as I know no-one's precious about the stuff they post here. If you're precious about your copy then link to it from your own website and charge people to read it. See how many people will pay you for the privilege.

If VB made so much profit out of the subscriptions that he could buy himself a nice bike, or even a yacht - as long as he fulfilled his obligations to the subscribers to keep the forum running efficiently and in the way we have become accustomed to seeing it (ie no big brands breathing down our necks) I really would only have props for him. The forum he's furnished London with is superb and has given active members an incredible return - for nothing. If he charged £15 a year and 4000 people subscribed, as far as I'm concerned he could do whatever he wanted with the money left over after running costs were met.

He's put in the work for two years and you haven't. It's his forum and he can choose to do what he likes with it. He's sliding this in democratically because he doesn't want a load of people getting indignant at what's suddenly implemented without their consent, but for it to have evolved suggests a solution has to be found which generates a steady cashflow. It's about the forum having grown beyond a point where it can still be called a labour of love.

for the record I'm not lame Phil, I was just trying to think things through. That's what this thread is for. I personally think VB should be liberally festooned with wine, virgins and accolades for his efforts.