What would you do if the forum had a subscription fee (to post classifieds, etc)?

What about a "buy the forum a mink coat" button?

Polybikeuser - its that I don't trust him, its just that I do not like the logical inconsistency of not knowing what the forum is/wants to be that is the problem and I am just being honest that for me personally, I would not donate if money was being made, alerting Velo and anyone else that there may be others like me.

But as I said, if I am paying for something, and it is obligatory, then fine, I'll pay - but hence I am using the term pay not donate...

I completely agree and anyway on past form there's a far greater risk that in ploughing it all back in VB'd over do it and still subsidise the forum. £3 feels like a bit of a weird number, though I'm sure it's been sensibly arrived at, I'd happily go for £1 a month, £2.50 a quarter or £5-£10 a year, whichevers easiest to set up.

It wasn't sensibly arrived at, it was thrown in the air when proposed by someone else, and I grabbed the number, quickly looked at the daily logins (1k) and thought... if only that number paid that figure each year, then the site is funded fully from the proposal to have a fee to be able to post classifieds threads.

As pointed out by others, I've probably not thought about it properly. Things like company registration, accountancy and audit, legal insurance, etc all have been blithely ignored.

Polybikeuser - its that I don't trust him

I think you missed a word that happens to change the whole meaning of the sentence.

I think you missed a word that happens to change the whole meaning of the sentence.

I really don't trust him?

:^]

Hehe, its NOT like i dont trust him. :)

I really don't trust him?

Damn, I knew it.

(heh, italics don't show so well when you quote)

VB, do fundraising events really not cut the mustard when paying overheads? I suspect that a fee could cause a load of bad feeling and bullshit. it's not the amount but what it means. I for one would be very much up for doing something to raise money. Would it not be nice for the forum to remain free? If regular members need to step up their efforts or donate more often then I don't think, from what I've read here, that it would be a problem.

Fund raisers get between £100 and £300 usually. Which at the current burn rate is anywhere from 2 weeks to 6 weeks worth of server costs alone.

They work, but with the increased costs (2nd server) they don't cut it on their own. Whilst they do work, I have always viewed them as providing something more important than just money, which is involvement from people in the forums existence.

oh yeah, i definitely agree about your last point.

But if people are not willing to pay for this forum, potentially, then clearly they do not value it.

And if they object on principle, they're simply niave about the time/costs involved in running it, and should be taken outside and shot.

Furtwangler, it seems like your angle on all this is largely academic...

Merchandising works the best. Which is why the T-shirts thing is happening.

But, as said repeatedly... the subscription was about providing a moderation to the classifieds. Based on the idea that those who are core to the community and who help keep the community strong, should get the advantage of being able to sell to the community. Those outside would be able to purchase, but not to sell. That was the loose notion, that the fee positively discriminated towards forum regulars by giving them extras. That it also could fund the forum without the need for us to do lots of other things is just a win-win thing that is hard to pass on.

And from the outset of this thread, the thing that concerns me isn't whether it would work (most things can be made to work), but whether it creates any issues or has problems.

I can see problems with us running a shop were it to in any way compete with BLB, Brixton Cycles, Shop 14, etc... as the forum is a hub for the community and as soon as it competes with any part of the much wider community (including shops) we've got something wrong. All should be welcome, including shops.

With the subscription I'm more concerned about how it needs to create a hierarchy to work, but yet the hierarchy would act to delineate an inner circle. This probably exists implicitly (no large community does not contain many overlapping internal cliques) but I'm not sure it needs any emphasis. And I'm very keen to make sure that the welcoming and open nature of the forum is not tainted by any ill feeling that arises from the creation of such a visible inner group.

I'm also concerned about how it might change the relationship betwen myself and the community. What if (as I predict) it fails to actually cover all costs? What if the potential market of willing donors is fewer than 1,000? In that case I would have turned the forum from a privately run enterprise funded by goodwill into a business, and in doing so in a lot of peoples mind would have made me a profit-monger of some kind, and any goodwill that currently exists to help ensure I don't carry things too severely might simply not exist.

There is also the fact that a lot of people do give a lot in terms of goodwill, time, effort and money to keep this place running. And those people might feel cheated or taken advantage of were the forum to have a subscription. I worked in the music industry for a decade, I know how it feels to work for peanuts when everyone else I saw was profiting, it would be unrealistic to imagine that those who also contribute here would not feel some element of that.

Unfortunately the debate has almost focused on one specific point now, "Do I have the right to make a single penny profit and keep it, ever?". It's a crap debating point... of course I do! But being blinded by that argument the social implications which are probably way more important are ignored.

We also don't concede the simple point: We generally over emphasize the potential issues.

It's good to be aware of what the issues might be, but it's easy to be doom mongers and forget that as a collective we're pretty chilled and what we may prophesize is unlikely to come to pass.

I think its a great idea to become a donor but couldn't we manage £3 a month or possibly a quater? £3 a year' would that really be enough? How much do we all waste a month on beer, cigarettes or other crap. Surely most people could manage such a small donation per month?

But, as said repeatedly... the subscription was about providing a moderation to the classifieds. Based on the idea that those who are core to the community and who help keep the community strong, should get the advantage of being able to sell to the community. Those outside would be able to purchase, but not to sell. That was the loose notion, that the fee positively discriminated towards forum regulars by giving them extras. That it also could fund the forum without the need for us to do lots of other things is just a win-win thing that is hard to pass on.

This bit does seems to be getting lost in most of the argument, paying to list items to sell seems fine, be it a yearly fee or an as-you-sell percentage or amount.

A percentage of sale fee would mean anything could be listed (if it didn't sell then you'd not pay) but a price-per-listing fee would discourage people selling any old crap, and keep the selling on-topic and centered around things we all like.

I'd favour a price-per-listing. This might encourage more jumble sales too (very social).

Harry.Major, I know Furtwangler outside of this forum, I believe that you do not.

If you feel the need to just spout off, then please.......be my guest.

Now, where'd I leave Ernie and Bert?

I don't know why thats relevant, or why you want to be personally offensive. I thought I had the right to interpret what people write, just like you did. Does knowing some one in the flesh alter what they right?

I genuinely find what you just said really fucking off and deliberately malicious.

Harry, this is completely irrelevant to the present discussion, but you do realise that the 'free' in 'free software' doesn't mean 'free of charge', don't you? ;)

And some of the issues you talk about have been addressed upthread, actually. It's a bit of a pain if you come to a massive thread like this late, but it is often worth reading it fully.

Oliver: I don't feel its irrelavanet, so I said it.
And I'm sorry if I repeated earlier points. But I guess that means more then one person agrees. I'm sorry you feel that disagreement should be confined. Plenty of people said yes from the beginning, you haven't been having a go at them.

**VB: **
I know what you are getting at, and I think your comments are totaly fair. I also understand how you feel I am valuing you at zilch, BUT. I'm not. What I like is that untill now no one has tried to use the forum as a business. Okay people have made dosh from it, but on the whole every contributes for free. Its a bit like a little gift economy. I think I value you higher because of it, because everything is free and you like others are doing it for the good of the community, not financial reward. I think thats amazing. Yes society is based on money, but the internet is increasingly providing information / communities / buisness without financial transaction. Or at least lessening its impact. And before you ask, yes I practise what I preach, I'm heavily involved in free provision for art education, and take no money for it myself.

Your position is different to your examples because the fee you would take come from the contributers, not from buisness advertising or a service charged. Wikipedia staff may take money, but they don't get it from the average user. Same with facebook or other social networking sites, staff make money, but not from the members.

Like I mentioned before thats my more ideological stance. In reality I'm not that bothered if you do, but in principle I don't think you should. And it seems I'm not alone on this. There seems to be a real sentiment of not making a profit. The members seem willing to pay, and suggest you shouldn't have to, but I don't think we should pay, for you to make money, when we all provide the content.

I guess I'll leave it there, I seem to be repeating myself and others, and people don't think I should be allowed to do that, so I'll just shut up. Just know I value you highly VB, its nice you do it for reasons other then money. Thats a model I like.

I'm sure its already been asked, but as I've been repeating others the whole time, I'll ask any way.
What is the approximate yearly cost of the forum?

There's a lot of talk of principles and taking the moral high ground, and how the users of this forum (us) generate the content, but if this forum disappears tomorrow, who sets up another one. Who has the technical skill/expertise and good will to keep a forum this size going. Who will make sure that this forum comes out top in the google search so our conversations can be read by those hungry for fixed gear knowledge. Certainly not me...
I've got no problem with VB making money from the forum, because he created it, he had the idea and he produced a space where we could all gather and information be disseminated.
We've become a society that believes certain things should be free, or at least your access to it should be free. This isn't the case. Those who will pay the £3 but with reservations, to tell you the truth I'd rather not have it. From my point of view either your for the forum or against it, and lets be clear about this, possibly PAY THREE POUNDS A YEAR!!! so the forum continues, in this open collaborative way, or don't and let the forum crumble under the weight of its own success, which you are part of, but yet you don't feel responsible for.

there are many people. creative, talented individuals who are making profit from this forum, who have a ready made market for their ideas and their wares. This forum provides a valuable space for creativity and enterprise to at this point in time a niche market of customers, the initial idea, as VB has reiterated time and again for those latecomers, was to get some money from those who profit via the classfieds to put some of that profit back in. To keep the forum running smoothly, without having to ask for money all the time, how is that a bad thing? If he makes profit at some later date, more power to him, because I know he will have deserved it, that this forum will have enriched so many other lives that its not a problem for me. And if he does make profit it will be because this forum has made itself a fundamental piece of peoples lives and together we will have shaped it into something which is long lasting and deserving of mention.
VB is trying to be as inclusive and as democratic as possible in a space where such things are generally bent out of shape within a few posts and posters can't see the wood for the trees. Take a longer term view, about this place, we're growing, and change is coming so that we can cope with that growth.
Yeah I have reservations, but those pale into insignificance when placed up against the thought that this place may not exist. Because if we, the users of this space, can't fund it's continued existence, who else will.
Fund raisers are all well and good but nothing should be sustained by fundraisers alone, stuff needs to be paid for, unknown costs pop up, holding a fundraiser every couple of months would fuck me off more than paying £3 a year and then donating when I see the forum needs it.

And personally as stated before if your gonna quibble over £3 a year when your gonna spend however much on an anodized seatpost clamp, which fits the exact shade of puce you've painted your frame, then you need to gain a sense of perspective

To be fair, I use this forum as a buisness. I thought my Dwarf selling days were over but since joining this forum I have found there to be a real market for it. I conduct most of my buisness deals via PM so as not to clog up the forum and pay VB with one dwarf a month. While most of you think that it is VB posting and tweeking the forum it is acctualy one of his many tiny slaves taking care of things while he sits on a thrown and is fanned by petite topless minxes. How dare he ask for money as he clearly is not out of pocket or putting in any effort. Having said that, dwarfs do take a lot of feeding so maybe that is why he needs the money.

Oliver: I don't feel its irrelavanet, so I said it.

Harry, what I meant was that what I said was completely irrelevant to the discussion!

I just thought I'd throw in the point that 'free software' doesn't mean 'free' as in money, but 'free' as in 'free speech'.

And I'm sorry if I repeated earlier points. But I guess that means more then one person agrees. I'm sorry you feel that disagreement should be confined. Plenty of people said yes from the beginning, you haven't been having a go at them.

I certainly don't think disagreement should be confined at all, but it does help in developing a position to read everybody's opinions and, if possible, build on them. If you read all the 'yes' positions, there's considerable variation between them, too. And I certainly didn't mean to have a go at you. Sorry if it came across in this way. As I also said, I know it's a pain to go through such a long thread, so I can quite understand why people wouldn't, by now.

There's a lot of talk of principles and taking the moral high ground, and how the users of this forum (us) generate the content, but if this forum disappears tomorrow, who sets up another one. Who has the technical skill/expertise and good will to keep a forum this size going. Who will make sure that this forum comes out top in the google search so our conversations can be read by those hungry for fixed gear knowledge. Certainly not me...
I've got no problem with VB making money from the forum, because he created it, he had the idea and he produced a space where we could all gather and information be disseminated.
We've become a society that believes certain things should be free, or at least your access to it should be free. This isn't the case. Those who will pay the £3 but with reservations, to tell you the truth I'd rather not have it. From my point of view either your for the forum or against it, and lets be clear about this, possibly PAY THREE POUNDS A YEAR!!! so the forum continues, in this open collaborative way, or don't and let the forum crumble under the weight of its own success, which you are part of, but yet you don't feel responsible for.

there are many people. creative, talented individuals who are making profit from this forum, who have a ready made market for their ideas and their wares. This forum provides a valuable space for creativity and enterprise to at this point in time a niche market of customers, the initial idea, as VB has reiterated time and again for those latecomers, was to get some money from those who profit via the classfieds to put some of that profit back in. To keep the forum running smoothly, without having to ask for money all the time, how is that a bad thing? If he makes profit at some later date, more power to him, because I know he will have deserved it, that this forum will have enriched so many other lives that its not a problem for me. And if he does make profit it will be because this forum has made itself a fundamental piece of peoples lives and together we will have shaped it into something which is long lasting and deserving of mention.
VB is trying to be as inclusive and as democratic as possible in a space where such things are generally bent out of shape within a few posts and posters can't see the wood for the trees. Take a longer term view, about this place, we're growing, and change is coming so that we can cope with that growth.
Yeah I have reservations, but those pale into insignificance when placed up against the thought that this place may not exist. Because if we, the users of this space, can't fund it's continued existence, who else will.
Fund raisers are all well and good but nothing should be sustained by fundraisers alone, stuff needs to be paid for, unknown costs pop up, holding a fundraiser every couple of months would fuck me off more than paying £3 a year and then donating when I see the forum needs it.

And personally as stated before if your gonna quibble over £3 a year when your gonna spend however much on an anodized seatpost clamp, which fits the exact shade of puce you've painted your frame, then you need to gain a sense of perspective

+1

Your position is different to your examples because the fee you would take come from the contributers, not from buisness advertising or a service charged. Wikipedia staff may take money, but they don't get it from the average user. Same with facebook or other social networking sites, staff make money, but not from the members.

Like I mentioned before thats my more ideological stance. In reality I'm not that bothered if you do, but in principle I don't think you should. And it seems I'm not alone on this. There seems to be a real sentiment of not making a profit. The members seem willing to pay, and suggest you shouldn't have to, but I don't think we should pay, for you to make money, when we all provide the content.

Who cares if he makes a bit of profit on top, I mean seriously Harry, do you have any idea the amount of work that goes into maintaining or building something such as this site? I'm sorry, I know this comment is not aimed at me, but I find that paragraph borderline offensive considering the financial and time sacrifices made by David, I mean the fact that you think we shouldn't have to pay because we provide content.....no forum no content its as simple as, and David created this forum, so maybe you should be a bit more grateful, happy even, if he gets a little something back in return for all his hard work.

If I'm invisible then I'm running the place well

Not actually true. If you're invisible then you're assuming too much of the burden of running this place with too little communication on the state of the forum. Don't confuse leadership with management. Good management of a service should be visible and appreciated. Luckily you and what you do is visible to those that care, don't fuck around trying to hide it, there's nothing to be shy about.

I am not very good with authority, that I am the authority here is ironic.
*

I had hoped before starting LFGSS that someone else would start it, I was waiting for it to happen for about 2 years before I got off my arse and did it. I do think my role is a small one in the big picture, essential for sure, but no more essential than a large number of people who have shaped the site into what it is.

Nonsense, not only essential but also a valuable role and one that isn't that small. Not only are you very important technically, but equally important in terms of contribution to the discussions. I do wonder if sometimes we lose out as a community because your time is taken up on technical stuff and not contributions. It is completely creditable that you took the leap to launch this site, something that is probably beyong a vast majority of us on this site. However, I'm surprised you haven't distributed some of the technical responsiblity on this site. Which leads me to the point that lpg has made about the potential for some sellers to attempt to avoid the fee model. At some level management of selling and classified will need to take place and I imagine that there is a potential for it to exceed your means in terms of time. For the sake of yourself and ladystardust, any changes to the selling procedure should also be accompanied by the distribtion of moderation and responsibility of that function.

In many ways whilst I do own and run the site, I view myself as your servant and not your leader.
*

all my life I felt worthless in the world and so I veered towards activity where I could provide a value and prove to myself that I'm not.
*

• HTFU. Seriously. Take a bit more time to value yourself not just for what you do, but for what you are. You may serve this community, but that doesn't make you a servant. As you've implied a lot of members serve this community and I doubt they see themselves as servants (the certainly shouldn't) and even leadership is a service of a fashion. Worthless is a pretty damning word and it in no way applies to you.
  

JAMES: I'm not suggesting we don't pay, I think thats fine. The members should cover the cost of the forum. Its if the forum starts buying VB a yacht that I have a problem. I know its unlikely, but its the principle.

In reality I know thats not going to happen, I'm not fussed if VB makes a bit of money, but I think this should be discussed ideologicaly first, but maybe thats just me. What are the principles we advertise, what are the morals we hold dear, what attitude do we project to new members, what are the policies. Heck if the forum cost 3k per year and we make 3.5k I'm not that fussed in reality if VB keeps it or gives it away. But I think we should discuss what happens to excess, and I think we should debate this thing of transparency.

I'm not shocked people think VB has every right to making a profit, I am shocked people don't think the members, and soon to be the financial backers have no right to know how much money is needed, how much is being generated, from where and is being spent on X.

Seldom Killer: Nice post.