Attacked

More killing, less reasoning, more nature, less conditioning.

Tynan, you might be the well seasoned type for that kinda action ... good for you. In the end of the day, if someone cut me up closely, but I am still riding, it is up to me to elevate that situation to the next level or not.

And if you're a friendly cough fella like me, then you might express anger loudly and explicitly, but the step to physical violence is a completely different thing. If two fingers mean the challenge to a fight for that driver, then I didn't want to express that in the first place.

Not that I am saying I would loose out necessarily, but even if I "win" because I kick the fuckers knee in and stick my thumbs in his eye sockets right after in the heat of the moment, I might be charged with assault, have a criminal record etc. All stuff that I could avoid by just sneering instead of shouting and sticking the two fingers out ...

... and I still find myself doing it. Not very often, but I do.
Yes, I'd probably be more angry if it wasn't me but my girlfriend.

On one of my first rides of the few we've done since I persuaded her to try cycling, we went up to canada water from peckham, round the back roads. When we hit the greenland dock she was really liking it, and it was perfect to practice. On the way back from the riverside towards surrey quays there was a guy who tried to overtake. I kindo blocked the road on a pedestrian crossing, where the street gets narrow, so he couldn't scare her while overtaking on the most narrow spot. A five seconds wait! The guy got so angry, started pressing his horn, coming real close. My girlfriend didn't really see it, but got quite intimidated. Then the guy drives past, and I stick my two fingers out and laugh at him. He must've heard and seen it, and he stopped 30 meters down the road. Well, I chose not to go past him, and told my girlfriend just to wait a while, and eventually he drove off. Imagine how much she would have loved the idea of getting into cycling if the guy and I would have had a fight?

Ohh yeah,story number two. One of the guys from my martial arts classes "elevated" a situation and spat into a bus drivers face on a red light, after he got cut up by the guy.
He then cycled off and thought he got away fine, but two red lights later he turns around and the guy is right behind him, swinging some heavy blunt thing right in direction of his head. How he managed to get off the bike and throw his had right into the guys face I don't know. Bus driver ended up on the floor and with a broken hand (because it was stepped on).

Last thing I heard was that the guy from my training only got of the hook by an inch. They wanted to charge him with assault, and let the bus driver go uncharged, but he requested CCTV footage, and it was in broadgate or holborn or somewhere where there's CCTV all over the shop, and it clearly showed the guy assaulting him. Still he got charged with minor assault for the spitting. Not sure what happened to the bus driver.

Yes, I know that people like that never should drive a bus, but then again If he'd just sneered, that whole situation wouldn't have happened in the first place, and it would have saved time and money.

Fucking Buses! I blame the Oyster card

Tynan you un-checked anger is admirable but i always ask my self one question before starting the battle..

Who has more to lose?
This angry little man who has spent most of his life abused and hated, has a man as a girlfriend and considers Pizza as fancy food. Or Me..
I keep my wanker moves and finely fashioned index finger in check at the start of these meets, if i am going to kick off then i'll do it when they least attack and do it when they 100% deserve it.
If someone is spoiling for trouble don't give them any reason to pick you. its hassle you don't need and could end up with a sad ending (a badly bent curly-wurly perhaps).

If they persist then play the mature card and reason with them untill you are in a position with the upper hand. i'd never start on a twat in a car untill i knew the odds were in my favour, i.e. the minimal i want is him out of the motor

Fuck that.

Fuck the idea that someone attempts to kill your girlfriend while she is riding her bike and you should "make their day a little brighter".

Fuck the immoral Christian nature of the sentiment, if someone tries to injure, attack or otherwise damage me (or anyone) I think it is my duty to show them that this course of action is unacceptable, wrong in every way possible, I think it is immoral to show them respect or make their day a little brighter - as much as I think it might be a poor choice of response to clap a rapist.

Fuck 'respect' in whatever vague nebulous sense you are using it. (all arguments containing the word 'respect' are - by it's use - meaningless.)

Do not give these cunts the idea that not only is it cool to attack or threaten a cyclist, but that doing so carries no consequences.

Every single driver who endangers my life or someone I know, or someone I love gets to find out how their lack of consideration makes me feel.

Really, this whole "hey guys, just leave it" thing is simply counterproductive, to take the sting out of someone's actions is morally ornamental, it may leave you some some 'zen' sense of calm and pious righteousness but you have passed the problem on to the next cyclist.

Action: threaten someone's life - response: respect = bad.

Action: threaten someone's life - response: broken windscreen = good.

spot on.

Fuck that.

Fuck the idea that someone attempts to kill your girlfriend while she is riding her bike and you should "make their day a little brighter".

Fuck the immoral Christian nature of the sentiment, if someone tries to injure, attack or otherwise damage me (or anyone) I think it is my duty to show them that this course of action is unacceptable, wrong in every way possible, I think it is immoral to show them respect or make their day a little brighter - as much as I think it might be a poor choice of response to clap a rapist.

Fuck 'respect' in whatever vague nebulous sense you are using it. (all arguments containing the word 'respect' are - by it's use - meaningless.)

Do not give these cunts the idea that not only is it cool to attack or threaten a cyclist, but that doing so carries no consequences.

Every single driver who endangers my life or someone I know, or someone I love gets to find out how their lack of consideration makes me feel.

Really, this whole "hey guys, just leave it" thing is simply counterproductive, to take the sting out of someone's actions is morally ornamental, it may leave you some some 'zen' sense of calm and pious righteousness but you have passed the problem on to the next cyclist.

Action: threaten someone's life - response: respect = bad.

Action: threaten someone's life - response: broken windscreen = good.

Edit to add -

I think violence and aggression very quickly get out of hand, and so should be a last resort.

Tynan, you might be familiar with that whole 'unintended consequences' thing people mentioned when they suggested we shouldn't invade Iraq.

I also think that what you're advocating is mainly for your own benefit - it's pure catharsis, intended to make you feel better in the face of your powerlessness.

Because, face it - you scaring people with your 'Hulk aaaAAANGRY' act is not going to make the streets of London safer. The best you can hope for is that one single driver might slow down a bit - if they're not too pissed off with cyclists.

That's not to say we have to roll over and take it.

I think that if people organised a little more, perhaps we could do things to improve the situation on the roads - engage in a bit of direct action, get some coverage, make drivers aware of the situation. And I daresay it'd touch more drivers and have more effect than raging at some pillock who cut you up one afternoon.

Fuck that.

Fuck the idea that someone attempts to kill your girlfriend while she is riding her bike and you should "make their day a little brighter".

Fuck the immoral Christian nature of the sentiment, if someone tries to injure, attack or otherwise damage me (or anyone) I think it is my duty to show them that this course of action is unacceptable, wrong in every way possible, I think it is immoral to show them respect or make their day a little brighter - as much as I think it might be a poor choice of response to clap a rapist.

Fuck 'respect' in whatever vague nebulous sense you are using it. (all arguments containing the word 'respect' are - by it's use - meaningless.)

Do not give these cunts the idea that not only is it cool to attack or threaten a cyclist, but that doing so carries no consequences.

Every single driver who endangers my life or someone I know, or someone I love gets to find out how their lack of consideration makes me feel.

Really, this whole "hey guys, just leave it" thing is simply counterproductive, to take the sting out of someone's actions is morally ornamental, it may leave you some some 'zen' sense of calm and pious righteousness but you have passed the problem on to the next cyclist.

Action: threaten someone's life - response: respect = bad.

Action: threaten someone's life - response: broken windscreen = good.

I wholeheartedly endorse this approach, but only on timid women and really weedy blokes.
If they're bigger than me then I'm all up for a bit of Aum.

I wholeheartedly endorse this approach, but only on timid women and really weedy blokes.
If they're bigger than me then I'm all up for a bit of Aum.

every action leads to a reaction. if you spread peace, peace will prevail.
drivers can be pond life and the encounters you guys seem to be getting in sound like the worst kinds of pond life so, ride hard, ride smooth, ride fast, pass them all by and when the traffic is nose to tail over this whole land bikes will still be king. the car is dead.

Every single driver who endangers my life or someone I know, or someone I love gets to find out how their lack of consideration makes me feel.

Most of the time it *is *just lack of consideration (or more likely lack of concentration)- I'm not sure that warrants any sort of violent confrontation. If someone accidentally cuts you up/pulls out in front of you whilst you are driving a car is it a proportionate response to smash their windscreen/wing mirror/face in at the next set of lights? I would argue not and think I am not alone in considering those who do consider that behaviour reasonable to be fairly reprehensible.

Because you/me/we happen to experience this regularly on a bike it doesn't alter the original intention of the car driver - which I honestly believe is *not *to try and kill me. People, and that includes me, all make crap decisions - I do regularly and on occasions whilst cycling - I'm not sure physical violence/intimidating behaviour is the most effective way of delivering a sustained improvement in general road user behaviour. I would also have to factor an extra 20 minutes in to my commute to accomodate all the windscreen smashing-in I would have to do an a daily basis.

Of course there are exceptions - people who really don't care if they injure you or not - in these circumstances whilst they remain in control of the 2-ton steel killing machine and I remain on a bicyle I would exercise the utmost restraint. If they didn't kill me with the first attempt I'd rather not give them a 2nd shot at it.

I fundamentally disagree with the assertion that a calm considered approach somehow perpetuates bad driving and passes on a greater problem to other cyclists - I believe the opposite is more likely and that by resorting to agression *you *are passing an even graver problem onto the subsequent cyclists that motorist encounters.

Yes, I know that people like that never should drive a bus, but then again If he'd just sneered, that whole situation wouldn't have happened in the first place, and it would have saved time and money.

If he just sneered the bus driver would likely still be endangering people's lives by cutting them up.

I think violence and aggression very quickly get out of hand, and so should be a last resort.

Agreed, last resort always, but to let buses and vans and cars cut us up and endanger our lives and then wave them on with a smile and reward their shitty road-craft with respect is simply encouraging future problems.

Tynan, you might be familiar with that whole 'unintended consequences' thing people mentioned when they suggested we shouldn't invade Iraq.

Not sure what connection you are attempting to make ?

I also think that what you're advocating is mainly for your own benefit - it's pure catharsis, intended to make you feel better in the face of your powerlessness.

Partially, yes.

Because, face it - you scaring people with your 'Hulk aaaAAANGRY' act is not going to make the streets of London safer. The best you can hope for is that one single driver might slow down a bit - if they're not too pissed off with cyclists.

Well obviously I don't share that opinion.

Fuck that.

Fuck the idea that someone attempts to kill your girlfriend while she is riding her bike and you should "make their day a little brighter".

Fuck the immoral Christian nature of the sentiment, if someone tries to injure, attack or otherwise damage me (or anyone) I think it is my duty to show them that this course of action is unacceptable, wrong in every way possible, I think it is immoral to show them respect or make their day a little brighter - as much as I think it might be a poor choice of response to clap a rapist.

Fuck 'respect' in whatever vague nebulous sense you are using it. (all arguments containing the word 'respect' are - by it's use - meaningless.)

Do not give these cunts the idea that not only is it cool to attack or threaten a cyclist, but that doing so carries no consequences.

Every single driver who endangers my life or someone I know, or someone I love gets to find out how their lack of consideration makes me feel.

Really, this whole "hey guys, just leave it" thing is simply counterproductive, to take the sting out of someone's actions is morally ornamental, it may leave you some some 'zen' sense of calm and pious righteousness but you have passed the problem on to the next cyclist.

Action: threaten someone's life - response: respect = bad.

Action: threaten someone's life - response: broken windscreen = good.

Nieztscheeeeeeee!

I am, however, wholeheartedly in agreement with you. I wish you could catch up with most of the people who cut you up and drive at you on the roads.

My favourite recent one, in Bath. Big wide bus lane, which I am occupying. Taxi steams past, all horns blazing with about an inch to spare. I catch up with him at lights, knock on the window. The taxi drivers face kind of drops as he sees bandana across the face and a cap.
"Pass me like that again and I will find you. I promise."
"Uhhh ok mate, sorry"
"Good"
Off I cycle, merrily.
It sounds about as psycho online as it did at the time, which is nice.

Most of the time it *is *just lack of consideration (or more likely lack of concentration)- I'm not sure that warrants any sort of violent confrontation.

I am not literally calling for violence at the slightest of driver mistakes, I am more making the following point:

The notion that it is somehow good to cycle off with a smug smile and a sense of superiority at your zen like calm in the face of murderous action after someone has attempted to save 15 seconds by gambling with your life is a bad way to live life.

I fundamentally disagree with the assertion that a calm considered approach somehow perpetuates bad driving and passes on a greater problem to other cyclists

Here we disagree.

Nieztscheeeeeeee!

I am, however, wholeheartedly in agreement with you. I wish you could catch up with most of the people who cut you up and drive at you on the roads.

My favourite recent one, in Bath. Big wide bus lane, which I am occupying. Taxi steams past, all horns blazing with about an inch to spare. I catch up with him at lights, knock on the window. The taxi drivers face kind of drops as he sees bandana across the face and a cap.
"Pass me like that again and I will find you. I promise."
"Uhhh ok mate, sorry"
"Good"
Off I cycle, merrily.
It sounds about as psycho online as it did at the time, which is nice.

Awesome. I am so using that line in future.

The notion that it is somehow good to cycle off with a smug smile and a sense of superiority at your zen like calm in the face of murderous action

"Murderous action" implies a pre-meditated act intended to kill you - my argument is that this is very very rarely the case. The vast majority of bad drivers dont want to kill you or me - it is simply a momentary lapse of concentration or ill-judged manoeuvre and if it is acknowledged as such there is no need to escalate the situation to anything else. That is not the same as cycling of with a smug sense of zen calm - just an acceptance we all stupid things sometimes.

Here we disagree.

Hey, I'm comfortable with that - as long as you dont try and smash my windows in.

"Murderous action" implies a pre-meditated act intended to kill you - my argument is that this is very very rarely the case.

Then let your response be proportionate.

That is not the same as cycling of with a smug sense of zen calm - just an acceptance we all [do] stupid things sometimes.

And it is best not to reward these stupid things with respect, especially when these stupid things kill and injure thousands of cyclist every year.

Agreed, last resort always, but to let buses and vans and cars cut us up and endanger our lives and then wave them on with a smile and reward their shitty road-craft with respect is simply encouraging future problems.

**I'm not sure anyone said 'wave on with a smile'. I've tapped on a couple of windows and had words with people, but generally in a reasonable tone - along the lines of 'mate, that was too close - you almost clipped me with your mirror' or some such - which has usually resulted in them being profusely apologetic. On the odd occasion I've received abuse, I've generally told them they're out of line and gone on my way.

To illustrate the point about unintended consequences -

Once, years ago, on a partic. bad day I banged on the window of some Merc and yelled because the guy had been basically trying to force me off the road as I wasn't accelerating quickly enough between traffic lights. I thought he'd ignored me, but he had actually decided to chase me about a mile to my place of work and try to run me off the road the entire time. I thought that I'd lost him, but after locking my bike up and walking to the front door of the office he suddenly pulled up, jumped out of the car and started trying to hit me in front of a startled group of colleagues screaming 'do you know who I am?' (I didn't).

Eventually he decided there were too many people watching and that he was holding up traffic, so he scarpered.

I got in shit from the grand poohbah of my then employer for sullying the working environment or some such.**

Not sure what connection you are attempting to make ?

Just trying to find an angle that'd make sense to you. Violence has unintended consequences, is all.

Partially, yes.

Fine - but that doesn't make it rational.

Well obviously I don't share that opinion.

...

Don't antagonise drivers, guys. It's just not worth it.

You're the ones using the superior mode of transport here. You're probably a lot less stressed and out of your depth than those guys. They've probably had a much shittier day than you even if you've had a shitty day. Pity them. Make their day a little brighter by showing them respect and consideration.

+1

In the past I found it kind of a reflex if someone did something stupid/dangerous to show them the finger. Nothing bad has ever happened to me as a result, but I don't do it any more. Reading some of the stories here I'm glad - it really isn't worth it.

Today I was passing a bus and some idiot decided to pass us both REALLY close, you know the sort, smoked-out windows etc. I was annoyed but I just ignored it, I passed them again at the next traffic lights, the car was full of "yoots" and tbh I wouldn't have fancied remonstrating with them.

Ride fast but ride safe, ride invisible. If you're dipping through traffic you are probably faster than those around you, so you really don't want to be assuming they can see you, you also don't want to annoy drivers and make them do anything unexpected. Similarly, you don't wanna do anything they won't expect - the "invisible" aspect.

On a similar note, this is why I always ride behind peds and never shout or attempt to alert them. If they're walking across the road they will keep on going - stay quiet and weave behind; they are very unlikely to start walking backwards. If you shout at them, they might run, they might freeze, but you don't know which. So stay invisible. If there are too many to simply weave behind, then slow down or stop.

Every so often someone still does something you can't predict/prevent - like Ali G and his mates zooming through a gap that isn't really there. However, if you get angry, then you failed in riding safe, cos annoying drivers around you is not safe.

Once, years ago, on a partic. bad day I banged on the window of some Merc and yelled because the guy had been basically trying to force me off the road as I wasn't accelerating quickly enough between traffic lights. I thought he'd ignored me, but he had actually decided to chase me about a mile to my place of work and try to run me off the road the entire time. I thought that I'd lost him, but after locking my bike up and walking to the front door of the office he suddenly pulled up, jumped out of the car and started trying to hit me in front of a startled group of colleagues screaming 'do you know who I am?' (I didn't).

Eventually he decided there were too many people watching and that he was holding up traffic, so he scarpered.

I got in shit from the grand poohbah of my then employer for sullying the working environment or some such.

So what is the lesson here ?

Don't shout at people who risk killing you to make their journey fractionally quicker in case you piss your boss off ?

Violence has unintended consequences, is all.

I am sure it does.

I also think that what you're advocating is mainly for your own benefit - it's pure catharsis, intended to make you feel better in the face of your powerlessness.

Partially, yes.

Fine - but that doesn't make it rational.

Nor does it make it irrational.

Fuck that.

Fuck the idea that someone attempts to kill your girlfriend while she is riding her bike and you should "make their day a little brighter".

So you want instead to give them the finger and piss them off? When you have to share the road with them and they are clearly not particularly competent drivers to begin with?

Fuck the immoral Christian nature of the sentiment, if someone tries to injure, attack or otherwise damage me (or anyone) I think it is my duty to show them that this course of action is unacceptable, wrong in every way possible, I think it is immoral to show them respect or make their day a little brighter - as much as I think it might be a poor choice of response to clap a rapist.

Yes, maybe if you catch them at the lights then have a word. If they are the typical impatient/angry driver that does these sorts of things then swearing at them is not going to make them see the error of their ways; it's likely to make them worse.

Fuck 'respect' in whatever vague nebulous sense you are using it. (all arguments containing the word 'respect' are - by it's use - meaningless.)

I respect cars in the fact that they are bigger than me and have the potential to cause me great physical harm, not in any other sense.

Do not give these cunts the idea that not only is it cool to attack or threaten a cyclist, but that doing so carries no consequences.

Does being aggressive give the idea that it not "cool" or merely annoy them further? I would say the latter.

Every single driver who endangers my life or someone I know, or someone I love gets to find out how their lack of consideration makes me feel.

Really, this whole "hey guys, just leave it" thing is simply counterproductive, to take the sting out of someone's actions is morally ornamental, it may leave you some some 'zen' sense of calm and pious righteousness but you have passed the problem on to the next cyclist.

If someone does something stupid, doing something aggressive back is unlikely to make them reconsider. In the worst case, it may make them do something even more stupid.

Action: threaten someone's life - response: respect = bad.

**Not respect, just try not to escalate the situation.

**Action: threaten someone's life - response: broken windscreen = good.

So if someone cuts you up you break their windscreen? I don't really see how that will make them respect cyclists more. Probably the opposite, even if you are in the right.

Just my opinion...

Fuck the idea that someone attempts to kill your girlfriend while she is riding her bike and you should "make their day a little brighter".

So you want instead to give them the finger and piss them off? When you have to share the road with them and they are clearly not particularly competent drivers to begin with?

Yes, I want to make the experience of endangering someone else's life unpleasant as possible.

I respect cars in the fact that they are bigger than me and have the potential to cause me great physical harm, not in any other sense.

Well if you are using the word 'respect' to mean 'fear' then I agree with you.

If someone does something stupid, doing something aggressive back is unlikely to make them reconsider. In the worst case, it may make them do something even more stupid.

Well then they even more deserving of trouble.

Not respect, just try not to escalate the situation.

If you are defining 'escalate the situation' as 'react' then we have differing opinions.

So if someone cuts you up you break their windscreen? I don't really see how that will make them respect cyclists more. Probably the opposite, even if you are in the right.

That was a device, an illustration.

My goal is not to make the driver who just tried to kill my girlfriend and child 'respect' me (however you are using this meaningless and ever changing word) - it is, as I have already said, to make the experience as unpleasant as possible.

Eye for an eye I reckon. If someone wants to get tough behind the wheel of their car and intentionally tries to knock me off then they better be ready to take the consequences, however I see fit to react at the time

So what is the lesson here ?

Don't shout at people who risk killing you to make their journey fractionally quicker in case you piss your boss off ?

That was kind of the icing on the cake of a rather bad experience.

Some people are nuttier than you are, and if you get all aggro on everyone, you'll catch one of the nutters inevitably.

Anyhoo, I can't really remember why I bothered to get involved in this argument. We've had it before, and it didn't go anywhere then either.

Enjoy your roid-rage.