Recent HGV/cyclist accidents

And people ignore the political side of things anyway. There are numerous laws and bits of advice for the use of the roads that get completely ignored. What's the point of trying to add to that. People will try and avoid doing something if it hinders what they want/where they want to get to.

This counts for both doing it the political at source way or managing at street level.

This isn't me trying to support the fuck everyone look after yourself attitude, i'd love the offical utopia way to work, but that just doesn't work does it. I'll try and read your links oliver but surely atacking every angle is the only thing we can do and has to help in some way.

Well, its just an awful lot of reading isnt it......

Im with Guerilla..... lets make big signs..... HGV cab height, to the left , attached to street light pole or traffic lights..... sign to HGV driver... ' Watch out Left - Cyclists'

and a sign at cycle level height too ' Watch out for lorries turning left '

or something along those lines........

Of course I wasn't suggesting that spreading the message about not going down the left side of a lorry is a bad idea. I was talking about the 'Road Safety' vs. the 'Road Danger Reduction' approach only.

A much higher proportion of women's fatalities are from collisions with HGVs than for men--but women are, statistically speaking, the safer riders.

and because they're the safer riders, they follow the cycling lane, which unknown to them tend to be unsafe than they are.

the people who designed the cycle lane are in the wrong, they're responsible for the death more than the trucker methinks.

The numbers are not that high. Yes, they are too high - any number is too high - but they are not high enough to base assumptions like this on.

By the way, if I was involved in a collision with an HGV and someone who hadn't seen what had happened decided to create a thread on teaching women to be better cyclists a couple of hours later, I would be pretty fucking pissed off. Have some respect.

By the way, if I was involved in a collision with an HGV and someone who hadn't seen what had happened decided to create a thread on teaching women to be better cyclists a couple of hours later, I would be pretty fucking pissed off. Have some respect.

A Certain forum member who was hounded of the forum and banned did a similar thing.

Im not making assumptions..... I just dont want to hear about any more hgv/cycle deaths. I would like to do what ever I possibly can.... even little to stop this happening again.

Actually I applaud women for being safer, I don't applaud the person who think the inside line approaching to the ASL is a fantastic idea.

and get rid of all street railings.

Let peds cross where they like, which keeps drivers alert for the possibility and so more aware of their surroundings.

And leaves an escape route for when cyclists do get stuck inside hgvs.

oliver correct me if I'm wrong but isn't there some cycle training, that you were talkign about with festus last sunday. Wouldn't it be best to point journalists, magazines, new riders to that, as riding on london's roads is about confidence and experience, the more experience you have, the more confident you become, but gaining the experience is difficult if you have no confidence, catch 22 thing. But in my opinion, the safety course would give you the confidence to get out there and ride on london streets.

Cycling safety, road awareness, courses should be pointed to at every turn when someone is purchasing a bike, or thinking about riding a bike.

Also I think some sort of pamphlet for riding safely and confidently on the road, should be made up, IF IT HASN'T BEEN DONE SO ALREADY, (saw a little comic one from like canada or the states which was linked to on this forum) which gives peoples the do's and don'ts about riding in london, or any other heavily congested area, maybe given away free with new bikes etc etc.

knowledge is king, and we shouldn't be hiding the knowledge we have acquired, so people learn the hard way...

how about making up some big old signs and cable-tieing them to railings at particularly nasty junctions? wouldn't have to cost much.

how about making up some big old signs and cable-tieing them to railings at particularly nasty junctions? wouldn't have to cost much.

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I still think that the majority of cyclists have no idea of the danger they put themselves in with their road positioning - its all very well harping on about HGV drivers getting the message, but the fact is they do get the message when they are trained to drive the damn things, whereas the majority of training a cyclist has is when their parents take them for a spin in the local park aged 4 or 5. We need to team up as a community to increase rider awareness, imknow there are schemes out there, but lets be honest no one hase really ever heard of them! - at least then when we go to others telling them to sort shit out, we can say, hey look at what we are doing, what you gonna do. At the moment it is far to easy, and sadly often correctly to blame the cyclist in these HGV incidents - and that should never be the case!

The reason that there is so little sympathy for this situation, is that a lot of the general public, politicians etc etc think that cyclists consistantly put themselves in situations that lead to fatalities by ignoring the laws of the road.

The simple problem is that HGV's, Bicycles and London roads are always going to lead to situations like this - the cycle lanes are crap, and as Ed says rightly encourage a false sense of security. We need a proper cycle network, and a ban on HGV's in daytime

londoners are luckier than a lot of areas in that you have councils that employ full time cycle trainers, Islington for one.part of the work is to get groups together from similar places to go out for level three national standards training. Luton where i used to be (pretty hairy roads there too) offers £15 1 hour sessions for up to three people at once.
also spread franklin 'cycle craft' about at workplaces--advice all there. personally i think theres loads of techniques that i use and lots of london riders here will also use that arent in 'cycle craft'- it needs an update, but thats another thread.

Corny, yes such cycle training of course exists (search--you'll get dozens of places where it's discussed), and everybody should be made aware of it. But immediately after such a collision is not the right time to talk about what may have been the victims' fault. Two people have just died.

I've added this link to the Standard's story about yesterday's E&C accident so the some of us might put some of the ideas we've come up with here on to the 'Comments' on the Standard website. It could help spread our message to a broader public

http://tinyurl.com/ckthgr

Why don't we put stickers on bike racks around the city? It'll give people enough time to read them as the lock-up, and if they use that lock-up often enough, they'll have a constant reminder.

yea thats a sick idea, out of interest do people who think cycle lanes are dangerous think we should not have a cycle lane at all? Because i can't really see there being a safer place for the lane to be then where it currently is.

i think cycle lanes have their place... but it's better to dominate the road as much as possible - and probably fuck off the drivers behind you - rather than be forced into a narrow lane by the kerb

hey Oliver just to clear up any misunderstanding, my post was relating to dammit's original desire to make people more aware of the dangers at junctions, road positioning, being wary of hgv's etc. Not to malign the skill or experience of any of the riders who have been injured/killed recently.

My post was pointing to the fact that most people who buy bikes need to be told/educated on how to ride safely in london, and that these courses would be a good way to try and make new cyclists confident about riding on london's roads...

This thread has been posted up to try and find some solutions to the situations that cyclists find themselves, through their inexperience, lack of road awareness etc etc. I'm just adding my opinion to thes issues, without as previously stated laying any blame on the cyclists who have been injured/killed recently..

+1 ^

how about making up some big old signs and cable-tieing them to railings at particularly nasty junctions? wouldn't have to cost much.

that would be a bizarre contradiction, the green line tell cyclists to follow it into the ASL and it's safe to do so, yet the little yellow sign above it said do not undertake truck/vehicle as it's dangerous to do so!

I've seen a lot more signs on the back of lorries/trucks recently warning cyclists not to go up the left hand side, but they seem to vary a lot, some are more obvoius than others etc. etc., I think that a simple clear sign would help a lot, even if it makes you re-think undertaking before doing so anyway, at least then you take a calculated risk. Personally I only go down the inside of a lorry if its not moving, even then it would probably be better to wait just in case it pulls away.

What happens if the HGV screams pasts you and then turns left on top of you.

What happens if the HGV overtakes you then gets halfway past and starts pulling in to the curbs and leaves you no where to go?

Not that simple is it

Unfortunately not, but if you can avoid putting yourself in a dangerous position in the first place, in this case if you never cycled down the inside of a large vehicle, then you would be at less risk. You can't forsee everyones actions on the road, and if someone pulls alongside you and sideswipes you there isn't a lot you can do. I tend to slow down as a lorry overtakes me if its either a thin road (meaning the lorry passes close), or if there is a junction coming up. So I can make sure I'm clear of the lorry before (if) it's turning, or just get that scary "Oh shit, this is close and it's fucking big!" moment out of the way sooner.

The solution starts with the cyclist and then with the HGV drivers.
Cyclist have to be made more aware of the inherent dangers on busy roads, London being the most extreme.

HGV drivers can't be held responsible for running over "invisible" cyclists. Its not their fault, they just can't see then on the inside and beside HGV drivers have a hard enough time just driving in LOndon.

The buck ultimately lies with the cyclist, with more awareness, easily achieved i think through bike shops having a word in the ear of every customer who intends to ride in London of courses, a sober warning to NOT RIDE ON THE INSIDE OF LORRIES, with leaflets and so on.

I liken it to an elephant and an ant. If anyone has to evolve to avoid being trodden on, it's the ant, not the elephant. if that makes sense.
Its not hard, just needs to be done.

The solution starts with the cyclist and then with the HGV drivers.
Cyclist have to be made more aware of the inherent dangers on busy roads, London being the most extreme.

HGV drivers can't be held responsible for running over "invisible" cyclists. Its not their fault, they just can't see then on the inside and beside HGV drivers have a hard enough time just driving in LOndon.

The buck ultimately lies with the cyclist, with more awareness, easily achieved i think through bike shops having a word in the ear of every customer who intends to ride in London of courses, a sober warning to NOT RIDE ON THE INSIDE OF LORRIES, with leaflets and so on.

I liken it to an elephant and an ant. If anyone has to evolve to avoid being trodden on, it's the ant, not the elephant. if that makes sense.
Its not hard, just needs to be done.

Fuck me...........bill was right.

This forum has turned into Bike radar

Oh and all that you said is bollocks