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@dogsballs
top one looks like a late 50's to 60's english track/path frame. pretty sure it's not a holdsworth (as i've never seen a raised and pointed seat stay), something like a geoff butler, but my guess is a claud butler. they are definitely nervex lugs though.
have a snoop around here
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/nkilgariff/
does it have a grease nipple in headtube or BB?