How can people afford cars?

ok, I disagree to a certain extent because it's clear we could do a lot more, a lot quicker. but then I'm not completely of the "end is nigh" school and I accept your point.

sorry about the deacon, I was drunk and obviously unable to type a rational argument.

flid ;)

I'll admit that I waver between thinking we're doing enough and not thinking we're doing enough, but I also think that there's a risk of making some bloody stupid mistakes if we are too hasty. Look at what's happened with biofuels so far - two years ago everyone thought they were going to save the world, now they're being dubbed a crime against humanity.

No probs about the deacon bit, wasn't sure if you disagreed or were on the wind-up...

Double the number of people using public transport in London (which is impossible at peak times) = a 10% reduction in cars on London's roads. The solution needs to be radical.

Double the number of people using public transport in London (which is impossible at peak times) = a 10% reduction in cars on London's roads. The solution needs to be radical.

Really? How do you figure? Seems like most cars are single occupancy, surely the % reduction would be a lot higher...

Modern culture is car-centric. High fuel prices and ghettoisation are forcing us to reconsider some choices.

That is all.

ghettoisation forces people to own cars, as ghettos are dlretly set up on the outskirts of cities, with few transport links.

Really? How do you figure? Seems like most cars are single occupancy, surely the % reduction would be a lot higher...

Figures from a friend who was the senior stastitician at the Dft, who was asked to look into it about 3 years ago. His report got shelved because government and the GLA didn't like the conclusions.

2005 RAC cost of ownership puts the cost of running a Vauxhall Corsa 1.2l at £9.36/day. and a 1.6l Ford Focus at £13.04/day. Since fuel prices have increased some 40% since 2005, that puts it up to some £10.61 for the Corsa and £14.11 for the Focus.

Once you add in other factors (inflation, extra cost of driving in London (higher insurance, paying for a parking space, congestion charge, higher fuel costs than national average)), £15 a day sounds like a reasonable figure for a family size car.

RAC source: http://www.rac.co.uk/web/know-how/owning-a-car/running-costs/motor-index-results-q3-05.htm

I know they will have pulled that figure from somewhere but it's what assumptions and how they come to that figure that is important. I think they must be assuming a new car and all service and maintenance being done by a dealer. Two factors which will greatly increase the cost of owing a car and two things which I do not think most car owners do.

Fuel in London is cheaper than most places in my experience.

Figures from a friend who was the senior stastitician at the Dft, who was asked to look into it about 3 years ago. His report got shelved because government and the GLA didn't like the conclusions.

Wow, that's really suprising. (The stat, that is, not your friend or the shelving of the report)

...it's what assumptions and how they come to that figure that is important.

Follow the link and you'll find their assumptions. Yes, I think there is some financing details involved.

Hello,

Some more about the economics.... Background: at the minute I live outside of london and do a fair few miles for my job, so I've worked this out quite closely because it makes quite a bit of difference to my cashflow! I also ran a car while being a student (for a variety of reasons), so I'm also had experience running a car on a really tight budget.

Basically, it's quite easy to run a car for a total cost of ownership between 20-35p a mile (including fuel, tax , service, depreciation, everything!) for a quite a wide range of number of miles per year (anything from 4000 -> 30000)

Typical example (low mileage):

Car cost - £1500 (8yr old Honda Civic, say, enough for a family, reliable, economical)
Finance cost at 6% - £90
Depreciation at 20% - £300
Annual Service - £150
Insurance - £400
Tax - £150
Fuel 6000miles at 15p a mile - £900
Consumables (tyres, oil, etc.) 3p a mile - £180

So, fixed costs per year of £910 or £2.50 a day. Variable cost of 18p a mile with a total cost of £2170 or £6 a day. Total cost per mile is 36p. Do 12000 miles and the per mile figure drops to 27p.

35p per mile is about the same price as the train for long distance routes, if you can get a cheap train ticket (a big "if", especially if you have to travel at peak times), so you're winning as long as you do a reasonable number of miles.

If you do lots of miles, it pays to "buy" fuel economy by trading it off against depreciation. For example, get a newer turbo-diesel:

Car cost - £8000
Finance - £480
Depreciation - £1600
Service - £400
Insurance - £400
Tax - £150
Fuel 25000miles at 11p a mile - £2750
Consumables (tyres, oil, etc.) 3p a mile - £750

Fixed costs are then £3030 or £8.30 a day, variable cost 14p a mile, total cost £6530 or £17.90 a day, giving a cost per mile of 26p.

What I'm saying is that if you travel more than about 100miles a week cross-country, a car works out cheaper than a train, and far more flexible: if I were to replace my regular work car journeys with train trips, one wouldn't be possible (it would have to be a cab or a very long bus route) and the others would more than treble my travlling times for a similar in cost. Using the train really isn't worth it! In town, and for local journeys, I cycle - if that's all I did, I'd sell my car. And I agree, owning a car in central london is a bit excessive.

This is where change is needed if we're going to cut car usage. Trains have to be better and, most importantly, cheaper than driving. And everything possible should be done to force people out of cars in the city centre. Here's where green taxation really has a use, assuming it's done such that the net tax increase is zero (i.e. green taxes should be used to reduce the tax bill for everyone else, say, by a reduction in income tax). I'm also strongly in favour of road charging - I don't consider it fair that someone in the middle of wales should be clobbered for driving 10 miles to the local shops, just because millions of people chose to get stuck in jams in city centres rather than make use of alternatives.

Courant

some thoughts:

• I don't think the £15 a day is far fetched when you take into account depreciation, financing, tax, insurance, MOT, all the repairs, parking charges, petrol etc... People seem to have nice new cars and I understand cars in this country cost even more than say in France.
  
• all earth resources are precious, I'd rather see less cars and more public transport rather than finding alternative fuels in order to sell more cars. Some people don't have the basics for cooking and heating their homes so I find it a bit sad that we think we have the right to own a car and demand to pay a minimum for it.
  
• It is a shame that people do not have enough choice in public transport when they are outside London and cannot find jobs nearer their homes.
  
  

Has anyone noticed any change in traffic in London the past few years? What was it like to cycle say 2 to 10 years ago compared to now?

I'd also like to reiterate that my initial question was about cars in London, say zones 1-4 where most people pay for public transport and travel for kids is free.

The argument still holds. Take journeys around, say, the N Circular. It's quite easy to have a commute of ~15miles each way (Enfield-Ealing, for argument's sake) which will take you around 45mins door-to-door, compared to a much longer tube journey in and out of central london. Cost would be £7.50 (25p a mile). OK, maybe a bit more because you'll be stuck in traffic. This compares very favourably to a tube ticket, especially if there are two of you. If you're in a client-facing job, cycling may well not be an option for that journey. Using a car is not an unsensible option (from an individual perspective) in this instance.

Courant

It's very easy to say a car isn't necessary in London when you don't have kids, but trust me - it is!
Getting kids of different ages to different schools within really short timescales does not always allow the use of public transport. going on their own is fine for older kids, but not younger ones. Travelling with 2 or 3 kids where one is in a pushchair is a nightmare - buses won't let you on without folding them so you need to carry one kid, pushchair, any shopping, oystercard etc while making sure the other kids get on fine. Similar with stairs in train stations, tubes etc. It's a complete shag & everything takes twice as long as when you are on your own. It is understandable why some (most) people decide to chuck them all in the car & sit there in a jam in preference.
What is completely crap is the lack of car-pooling.

Mine go by bike with me 1 day a week, by train twice a week & by car twice a week (though that is with 5 kids in the car - sharing with another family).

+1 to Courant If you share a car and frequently drive with on passenger the cost soon becomes a lot less too.

I think for outside London there needs to be more park and ride type facilities. these facilities also need to be better in terms of frequency and cost. Use the car for the bit of the journey the car is good for and a bus / bike / train for the last bit of the journey. I used to drive to Oxford, park in the suburbs and ride in when I was living out that way.

..oh and you afford it by using it as little as possible, having the same car until it falls apart & using the dodgy garage round the corner to do essential repairs.

plus learning to mend your own car. Many things are quite easy to do and you can find many part cheap through places like eurocarparts and similar.

My +1 project in the pipeline at the moment, just getting a respray, check it

when i was in school i worked out that having a car was cheaper then taking buses, but that was when $20 filled a tank and that lasted over a week.

It's very easy to say a car isn't necessary in London when you don't have kids, but trust me - it is!

It's true. Education in London was unheard of, prior to the invention of the motor car.

I think you've confused convenience with necessity.

until recently i was in a couple of bands and gigging 2 or 3 times a week. now i'm in just 1 and not playing so much but if and when things do pick up again i'll be buying a car. i used cabs for years but really it was costing more than a cheap car would.

one of the other guys in my current band just picked up an old renault 5 off gumtree. it's a 20 year old banger but it's kind of charming, runs okay and has room for amps and guitars. it was £250 and had, new tyres, 8 months MOT and road tax. he's got free parking near his house, avoids the congestion charge if he can help it (rides to work) and it hardly uses any petrol. at that price it's got be almost disposable.

sometimes you just need a car and i've no qualms about doing a similar thing if and when the need arises.

until recently i was in a couple of bands and gigging 2 or 3 times a week. now i'm in just 1 and not playing so much but if and when things do pick up again i'll be buying a car. i used cabs for years but really it was costing more than a cheap car would.

one of the other guys in my current band just picked up an old renault 5 off gumtree. it's a 20 year old banger but it's kind of charming, runs okay and has room for amps and guitars. it was £250 and had, new tyres, 8 months MOT and road tax. he's got free parking near his house, avoids the congestion charge if he can help it (rides to work) and it hardly uses any petrol. at that price it's got be almost disposable.

sometimes you just need a car and i've no qualms about doing a similar thing if and when the need arises.

what about insurance thought? those are usually the deal-killer especially for young adult.

I paid £500 for a Citroen AX and end up paying nearly twice that for insurance, granted I was 18 then and has already sold the car when I was 20 (I loved that little bugger), but either way we do have the highest insurance cost in Europe (I think).

You said it you were only 18. Third party fire and theft only + a year or twos no claims and being over 25 makes a big difference.

I love cars, and have been lucky enough to own some of the cars i dreamed of as a youngster. However i gave up running a car in London at the beginning of last year - at the time i was running an Audi RS4 and probably doing 20 miles in it a day. The cost of fuel alone was 400+ dorra a month, and i just thought enough was enough. I got rid of it, and now use a service called Streetcar, where you can rent a car/van by the hour, so if i need to haul something around, or do a large shop i can get one as and when needed:

http://www.streetcar.co.uk/default.aspx

I still have a couple of other cars which i use for fun, and quite a few motorbikes as 2 wheels, whether motorised or not are my first love, but i doubt i will return to using car in London until i have kids and cant do without one.

how much does streetcar work out at then? Is it just the hourly rate or any more (retainer? Deposit?)