Israel / Palestine

Feel like we’re watching the Iraq War all over again

The other thing that I can say is that we'll try to finish that job with minimal civilian casualties. That's what we're trying to do: minimal civilian casualties. But unfortunately, we're not successful."

Benjamin Netanyahu
Israeli prime minister

Insert nickcage-you-dont-say.jpg

Israel must offer 'a political horizon', says ex-prime minister

Joe Inwood

International correspondent, BBC Newsnight

I’d arranged to meet Israel's former Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, who was in office from 2006 to 2009, to discuss the withdrawal from Gaza of 2005, which he had overseen. However, the conversation soon turned to the future of the Strip, as well as his fierce rival Benjamin Netanyahu.

Speaking in his Tel Aviv office, Olmert blamed the current prime minister for security failings that led to the 7 October attacks. Netanyahu has said everyone will be held accountable, including himself.

It is on the subject of the future of Gaza, as well as the occupied West Bank, that Olmert was most forceful.

He told me, “once Hamas had been destroyed”, an international peacekeeping force must come in to take over “for a short period of time”.

This would then allow the Palestinian authority to eventually take over from them, rather “than from Israeli bayonets”.

In return, he said Israel must offer “a political horizon” in the form of a two-state solution, the internationally backed formula for peace envisioning an independent Palestinian state alongside Israel. His proposal would involve the withdrawal of Israeli settlers from almost all of the occupied West Bank.

This call will undoubtedly be highly controversial in many parts of Israeli society. The settler movement is increasingly powerful and emboldened.

He acknowledged his plan would lead to confrontation, but said if action was not taken, “then Israel will become a binational state that will forever live with internal conflict, friction, terror and hatred”.

What do people think of a global boycott of products and services from the states of Israel, until such a time that the two nation state is restored?

The idea was suggested to me yesterday, and I like that it was a thing that individuals could do.

Completely support. I’ve been boycotting Israeli produce for years.

Check yer vegetables folks. I once bought samphire with Israel written on it, which sucked.

BDS is an organised thing that has been going for a while: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycott,_Divestment_and_Sanctions

True to form, many Western states are seeking to either ban or limit its actions, and Israel is waging a typically aggressive propaganda war against it.

Like others, I have been boycotting Israel for years. Check your hummus.

The tricky parts is finding out which’s which.

A global boycott of an American company operating in Israel would be a bigger impact.

Like McDonald, but likely not possible.

This is more terrifying. Maybe because of learning from Iraq, this angers me more.

This is mass ethnic displacement and could become ethnic cleansing. A second Nakba. This is what Francesca Albanese of the UN said after the first week.

I don’t know what percentage of Israelis or diaspora Jews wants the occupied territories ‘cleared’, but I’m not sure that matters.

I am all for boycotting agricultural products as the distribution of land in Israel is beyond dodgy, but I have reservations when the boycott extends to cultural exports, as Israelis working in the arts sector are the most likely to be critical to their own regime. An example of the cultural boycott being handled well however was by Brian Eno. An Israeli dance company toured the world and a sequence of their performance had one of his tunes on the soundtrack. Btw, becoming a professional dancer is one of the ways in which you can escape military service, so you're more likely to find dissenters there than in the Israeli population at large. Anyhow, when the same dance company got a sponsorship from the Israeli government and the relevant ministerial logo was printed on the posters etc, Brian Eno tore up the IP agreement that had let them use his song for their performance. The right kind of balance IMO.

It’s also very difficult to adhere to BDS in the context of tech products; most of the big players including Intel, Apple have major R&D facilities in Haifa, the ‘israeli Silicon Valley’. Nvidia owns Mellanox.

Loads of tech startups such as PrimeSense (Xbox Kinect and Apple FaceID depth sensors) who go on to be subsumed by tech behemoths have their roots in israeli military skunkworks projects.

I procure server hardware for my company, and have steered them away from using Mellanox network cards and Intel CPU platforms, but most big tech products are riddled with israeli-borne IP.

most big tech products are riddled with israeli-borne IP.

It would be interesting to see if anyone has mapped out the extent of this, and gone on to analyse its potential leverage on US policy.

Not supposing it’s the predominant factor in the US’ tolerance, but still.

I'm up for that.

BDS is pointless.
Doubly so, when governments impose bans on local procurement policy from adoption.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-BDS_laws#United_Kingdom

Me too. Avoid all fruit and veg from Israeli sources.

Also look at the list of over 100 companies, published by the UN, as operating in the occupied Palestinian Territories https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/112-companies-linked-illegal-israeli-settlements-un

Why do you believe it to be pointless?

In the nearly 20 years which have passed since the ostensibly laudable founding of the BDS, there has been very little noticeable effect on the Israeli economy.
Independent reporting on the effects is essentially impossible to find, but given the most extreme theoretical effect I have seen quantified is $15bn. A number matched by foreign aid this month, let alone within the year.

In the places of power, the effects are not felt. Even with the settlers, there is enough economic wealth to support any losses felt. I am yet to see evidence of a closure of an illegal farm as a result of action.

As a cultural phenomenon, we do see the occasional superstar refusing to play an Israeli show, but this is faced with a very swift response by the Demonisation arm of the Israeli counter-response, with cries of Anti-Semitism immediately landing.
The boycott of academics, for the most part, lands at the wrong people, usually on the Israeli Left, and therefore the effects are in the face of effective outcomes.

All in all, coupled with governmental policy to prevent large scale adoption of the BDS principles, it is essentially futile.

It might be as good as it gets, but don't delude yourself as to its efficacy.

semi relatedly- this is a good read:
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/aug/14/bds-boycott-divestment-sanctions-movement-transformed-israeli-palestinian-debate

Biden op-ed, proposing sanctions on West Bank settlers and any displacement in Gaza won't be tolerated
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/11/18/joe-biden-gaza-hamas-putin/

I work in the semiconductor industry, and a lot of companies have a development site in Israel. The Israeli government have had a long term strategy to invest in technology so there is a pool of talent available and lots of innovation, also part of the tech strategy, so a lot of the bigger tech companies have acquired Israeli companies.

Given that the US government is currently in a battle with China to retain it's position as the global leader in semiconductor technology, it's probably a factor in US-Israeli relations.

But by far the biggest factor is the large population of Jewish people in the US, which is almost as big as the population of Israel.

Nicely summarised re the realpolitik...

https://twitter.com/Hamza_a96/status/1725954006315332021

There’s also been a recent phenomenon of successful russian tech startups shuttering their operations and phoenixing as israeli entities.

Which is why MBS wants a relationship with Israel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htApn2qVCiw&t=334s

Take with a pinch of salt of course but always interesting to hear.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/18/israeli-airstrikes-kill-80-in-palestinian-refugee-camp

Some terrifying reporting today out of Gaza amidst the killing of 80 people at the Jabalia refugee camp.

2/3rds of the 2.3m population displaced.

3,676 people killed in southern areas that Israel had declared "safer".

Aid agencies say they are unable to provide food, water.

Meanwhile Israeli cabinet members boast of carrying out a new Nakba in Gaza.