What time is it? Watches and horology

The GS9 club is 100% official and organised and funded by GS

Was that always the case? The article says: "An informal club, known as the GS9 collectors’ club, developed. It was not affiliated with Grand Seiko directly"

Yes. It existed in Japan for a number of years before they launched it in the US. It might be a mistranslation.

Oh well. Anyway, hats off to Seiko for increasing the status of quartz so much. It's a most surprising postscript to the quartz crisis.

Anyone want to sell me a nice field or military watch for under £300? Cwc G10 or the like? Or something older? Would rather something smaller than 39mm and not too chunky.

Gonna brain dump a few thoughts on this stuff.

The success that Akio (not Aiko as repeatedly misspelled in that article) Naito had in launching and growing GS in the States is what got him the top job globally. The money they threw at Hodinkee in particular was crucial to that, and they’ve continued to do that with other watch sites and people like Teddy Baldassarre on YouTube. And because their watches look frankly incredible under a macro lens, that kind of online marketing and placement has suited them down to the ground. They also got their western brand values sorted out with all the Japanese cultural / nature references etc. (whatever your opinion of that stuff) and haven’t wavered from it.

Pre-IG and Youtube and Hoodwinkee it would have been a much harder job.

The GS9 club stuff is interesting, I kind of suspect it has had less impact / ROI than the other stuff but in the US they do much more lavish events than over here so maybe it has worked for them. It is definitely a different, almost opposite approach to the Swiss brands that want their customers at arms length, if they must deal with them at all.

The FT has a grand seiko article as well this week
https://www.ft.com/content/e0c64155-7c1e-4637-ab26-21894b1d89ff

because their watches look frankly incredible under a macro lens

This point is huge. The Japanese have a well-earned reputation for setting themselves almost impossibly high standards when they want to get established in a premium niche. GS dials are wearable art. They really make you want to pay the high price.

Well it just sells that story of craftsmanship/attention to detail. Because you can’t really see a watch well enough in a retail environment with the naked eye to clock it. So when you’re now able to film 4K macro video of the dials and hands you can actually see the difference between the way GS do it and the way most Swiss brands do. Before that all you ever heard about GS was “why on earth would you pay Rolex money for a Seiko lol”.

I don’t think anyone GAF about the craftsmanship angle of Grand Seiko apart from horology enthusiasts (shudders) unfortunately. I think they will need to go scarcity/rolex/supreme/dickhead to get traction- which is a shame if I am right.

On a similar vein, it does mildly irk me that ‘the citizen’ range gets so few props when it’s a solar HAQ movement in super treated titanium with astonishing finishing. But they are only watches I suppose….

I did indeed have negative feelings at one point for all GS models, and wasn’t afraid of saying on here.
But had a road to Damascus type about face after seeing in the flesh and got all the associated info. It was me pushing for the brand to go into our Windsor store along side Rolex and Tudor etc.
So you could say I agree with you all now.
So one of you had better buy the first one we sell or I won’t be able to show my face anywhere!

They do scarcity via the Hublot model, the way Omega also used to do it - limited and special editions (and lots of them).

I think the craftsmanship stuff is aimed at least as much at relative newcomers as it is the traditional watch collectors. I think it particularly resonates with people who don’t want their dad’s Omega/Rolex. They discover the waiting list nonsense and think “fuck that”. They make a judgement on the quality and if they can be confident that a GS is on a par with Rolex/Omega - which is the line that it suits Watchfinder, Hoodwinkee, TB etc to be running - then I do think we’ll see a shift from buying a GS after you already own at least one big Swiss brand to GS being a first luxury watch purchase. It's not common yet but I have seen it happen.

Having said that, there's still that stat that a large majority of buyers still know very little and do no research, and just buy what they like the look of in the AD. Which seems crazy given the sums involved, but is apparently the case.

large majority of buyers still know very little and do no research, and just buy what they like the look

Which is how most people would buy other jewelery I assume

Is depreciation still an issue?

Yeah, true.

Was it ever? Only Rolex and PP and a small number of AP references are depreciation-proof. What about all the other brands?

I think in the US, GS prices have always been lower. Dealers give bigger discounts than in Europe and second hand prices have definitely been lower especially for quartz pieces but I think that's changed a bit. Limited edition Grand Seikos that are in demand definitely appreciate. Eg the "Whirlpool" is at least 50% over list these days, as is the "Peacock" GMT, and the Ryusendo to name a few.

Vintage prices for the best pieces have also kicked up.

The scarcity and ltd edition model is definitely working on me. I've always liked the Speedmaster but the fact I can get one whenever means I've yet to buy one that and the fact I said liked not love yet I'd be willing to give my left nut for a 3.5k quartz and if I was able to get hold of the Sbgp017 shortly after they're bound to release something else I'll want so with all the other watches out there there's always at least one GS on my radar. If I get a Speedmaster I'll either like it enough to keep it a long time or it'll scratch the itch and I'll sell it within a year or two. Either way I'd only be buying one. Same with Tudor I've already got a BB58 so seeing new models with subtle colour variations or a slightly smaller case I just think I've already got one that's basically the same and don't really give them a second glance but with Grand Seiko I can't get enough of them. I've only got 2 but I'd probably have 10 if I could afford it. The first one I bought was grey which I didn't realise at the time and the second was second hand so I can't get GS9 membership yet but thats probably a good thing for my books as I could end up with a real problem if I was given the full groom. Rolex waiting lists and the Whole Moonswatch thing puts me off a watch rather than lust after it.
For me things like early pre order opportunity to reward loyalty are attractive to me.

Omega used to get absolutely hammered for the number of limited edition Speedmasters they used to put out but now they’ve stopped I’ve heard a few people say they wish they’d do more LEs again (including RJ of Fratello). 🤷

@ejay2.0 found your first customer btw ^^

Seems like it's improving. I hadn't thought that the number of brands not depreciating were so small.

I'm generalising a lot… you can definitely pick up a lot of GSs cheap especially in the US on forums and private sales. But nearly all brands are going to depreciate to a greater or lesser extent, barring a handful of rare references. And even the universal Rolex bulletproofness is really quite recent and probably won't last forever.

They're things to be worn and enjoyed at the end of the day.

Used to be able to get 25% off at GS Retailers. That changed I wanna say in 2019? Topper Jewellers and Timeless Luxury (who were acquired by WoS) had no issues offering me that discount as a first time customer. Called back a year later and they said that they no longer offer GS discounts. Period. Said that GS had cracked down on discounting. Some retailers wouldn’t even offer me a discount on Seiko Luxe references. But you can buy them for 60% of the US retail price from Sakura anyway.

How much of that 40% discount gets eaten by import duty / fees / taxes when you buy from the US? I guess you must get a much better deal than we do on that.

Cheap stuff from Japan / Singapore / HK isn't cheap to the UK anymore, once you add VAT and import duty/fees/shipping it's a waste of time. Certainly, looking at Sakura prices a GS is going to work out no better than maybe 5%-8% cheaper than just buying full price from a UK AD. And in that case you can get a discount from @ejay2.0. ;)

I think about 10%. But up to $800 is duty free. So I order quite a lot of stuff from Japan generally as it’s very rare I’m spending upwards of that limit. But yeah, totally see how there’s no point in England.

35mm PRX automatic… I like it.

https://www.fratellowatches.com/you-knew-it-was-coming-and-here-it-is-tissot-prx-35mm-automatic/

I agree with kind of wanting a 37/38mm version really, in between the 35 and the 40, but that does seem a bit churlish.

Side note, the mother of pearl dial that's etched rather than stamped looks banging.

Nice. I really like the recent full lume dial 40 quartz but the white rubber strap put me off.