Let's offroad / mountain bike / mtb / ride dirt

Yep, far too much over thinking.

I can see you're point. My full sus it a bit higher and thus closer with shorter stem than my xc bike. I can't ride steep stuff on my xc bike, it's too low. I've not measured numbers but I can appreciate what you're saying.

Exactly this.

Which brings me back from the distraction of my weird over thinking about dynamic mtb fit to what kind of approximate value should a second hand one year old full sus mtb frame have reduced by?

I've never skipped posts so fast, hope nothing important was said.

Nothing important.

But you work in a bike shop and @kidneys thinks an LBS will help with this question “ if I can find someone selling a secondhand frame how much should it be. Brand new the aether 9c is £1740 what kind of ballpark should I look to pay for a second hand one?”

About 5 mins into this video they discuss rider area distance, get it right and pumping etc will become easier.effectively locked out straight arms and legs will bring the bars up to your hips giving maximum power to that lift of the front end.

I appreciate that you'll have nice sense of completeness getting all these fit numbers dialled but I also thinks all this RAD stuff is all a load of pish.

Getting it right won't make pumping etc easier but just getting out and riding for a couple hours twice a week for 50 weeks straight will have you riding just about any bike better regardless of fit.

This Lee cunt can say whatever he likes about how a bike should feel by the numbers on paper but the only thing that matters is how its feels while riding.

I wouldn't spunk money on a smaller sized frame before buying a set of 50mm riser bars and seeing how they feel.

My knowledge on that goes as far as 50% +/- a bit for condition/demand.

Currently If I try to raise the bars the RAD becomes too long and the only way to mitigate this would be to find bars with a huge sweep back but then the bars will be behind the steering axle with a negative value SHO
So it appears I need to swap out to a smaller frame at which point I can achieve near perfect RAAD SHO and RAD.

I think this is the predicament that Kidneys was referring to and I suspect it was in jest…

It sounds like you’re heavily invested in this glorified stack and reach RAD business and maybe not open to just trying high rise bars!
So I’ll echo what snottyotter says, 50% of retail is what I’d aim to pay.
But I’ll say it just one more time, I’d try spending 2.5% of retail on high rise bars first.

So I dropped the spacers and reduced the reach as much as I could and the bike feels better on general flowy trails, but on descents it feels like I have to push the bars a long way away from me.

A smaller size frame I can keep the diagonal reach, the bar to steerer axis distance and then also have the front end a few cm higher.

The frame swap won’t cost me much/anything as I am looking for a second hand one in the right size and I’ll then sell mine!

Sounds like you want something more chuckable.

more chuckable.

So probably 26" wheels then

The frame swap won’t cost me much/anything as I am looking for a second hand one in the right size and I’ll then sell mine!

Aye thats fair enough I suppose. It just all sounds a bit drastic but if your current frame really feels too long then go for it.

Is it possible that you've just not got used to the new breed of long low and slack bikes?
If your last bike predates the LLS era then it could be that you need to adapt your riding style to newer longer frames.
The tendency on older geo bikes was to get your arse right off the back over the rear wheel when going downhill. On newer bikes it takes a wee bit of adapting to riding downhill with the weight bias a little more over the front wheel. This can take a bit of getting used to and I still tend to automatically get my arse over the rear wheel even when it's detrimental.

I looked at the geo charts and the reach on the Large and XL is really loooong. What size is your current frame and what height are you?

I am 6’ tall bird suggest the crossover point between the large and medium/large is 5’11. It just doesn’t quite work for me.

This is the issue the looooong reach making it hard to get the bars in a suitable place without making the reach even longer. So on descents I feel really stretched out even with my saddle dropped all the way and my shorts grazing the saddle. For my bulk and age I am freakishly flexible but the reach to the bars actually makes it harder to get weight over them as they are far out and low, so when descending they are even lower. Trying for a heavy feet/light hands approach with the majority of my weight over the BB is difficult when the bars feel so far away.

What frame size do you have? Large or Medium large?

I have the large and would like to go to a m/l

I have the large

I think thats the root of the problem. 512mm reach on the Large is closer to most brands xl sizes.

My pal has an xxl Megatower with 515mm reach, he's 6ft4. I'm 6ft2 and tried it to see if I could get away with it and it just felt too long. I ride an xl with 490mm reach.

Obvs sizing can be personal preference but it sounds like you'll be happier on the M/L

p.s. stop worrying about all that RAAaaaD squared stuff!

thought it was just me

Yeah that's long. The xl neuron I have is 473 (old school) and use a 40mm stem.
I'm 184cm my sho is around 85cm iirc.

Go in your LBS and ask how long a piece of string is. Then explain RAD to them. You'll have all the answers you need.

I'm 187cm:

Madonna is 505mm reach, 35mm stem, size XL
295 is 503mm reach, 32mm stem, size XL
529 is 508mm reach, 32mm stem, size XL

The Madonna has a massive stack height which is why the reach looks less on paper...

Does that not put you over James' ideal RAD measurements ?
Interesting they're shorter reach at XL than his L.

Mountain biking seems to be lost in its own world of sizing where effective top tube us never used because that's associated with road bikes, where as in reality is the most useful measurement.

That's also because the XL Madonna has 670mm stack height and the L Bird only 643. If you add 27mm more spacers to the Bird the reach will become way less.