First Aid

Speaking of tournequets. Is there a legal issue when using it? As in, its applied to save a person's life but they loose a limb. Is there legal recourse? What if they say that it was used unjustly when something else could've been done?

Hard one to answer.

People who have been saved have actually sued for damages..... even though the actions taken have made them able by being alive to sue.

If you have someone on the floor gushing blood in 6 foot high spurts then they will most likely bleed out in minutes.
People can bleed out internally into the pelvic area rather quickly and thats hard to detect and beyond a TQ carried in a pocket.
Having a leg or arm ripped/blown off at the socket is a tough one, partial limb loss is easy to spot and apply a TQ or even 2.
If you go down the path of a TQ it will most likely be bloody obvious (pun intended) and outside of having a fully equipped ambulance and a paramedic on hand you are very limited.

Doctors, Surgeons, Paramedics etc etc all have legal in place and insurance in case of being sued by someone they save, it does happen. Malpractice and death by error is one for the courts to decide.

If you start CPR you are to continue until you are relived by help or you pass out yourself (does happen). Starting then deciding it's no good and stopping will land you in coroners court as you aren't qualified to make the decision to stop.

I deal with DNAR orders. As refered to by patients "a death warrant" this red A4 form is filled out by a consultant/Registar/Doctor and is a request NOT to perform CPR. If we know about the form, but don't have the form we do CPR against patients wishes, we can get a load of trouble for this, but it's standing orders, no form in hand so the order is void. If we think the Form is incorrect and let it stand, and let a patient go, we are in a world of trouble if the form is incorrect.
It's a minefield of ever changing standards.
You would be surprised at how casual some people are about DNAR's and don't really understand the paperwork and it's implications after they have gone.

In inner London if it's serious and described correctly when the 999 call is made then they will get there within 15min. Very useful understanding the wording 999 operators need to hear about the injured people rather than lots of panic and faff.

At past first aid things I did they stressed that using an AED improves chances drastically if doing CPR, really worthwhile knowing where they are on your regular routes so gyms/train stations/supermarkets. On most major roads you can't be more than 200yards from a place with one, don't leave the person alone but if others are with you and know what to do grab the nearest AED.

Thread needs pictures.

Some items for scale, the white background is an A4 sheet of paper.

Spread out on the paper is a CPR face shield, an older heavy duty version, the green oval in the middle is a one way valve to protect the user from anything the patient has Hep/HIV etc etc or good old vomit and blood.

Bottom right is a newer Face shield these are very slimmed down and super light, you can get one on a key ring pouch for a few pounds, most of the staff I work with carry one of these, always on them. Next to that is my shoulder flash, I am a basic ACA and play with Ambulances. Not a Paramedic, only do emergency if I am First Person On Scene (FPOS, now superceded by FREC3).
First Response Emergency Care level3

Left side, yellow box contains a Pocket Mask, again fairly cheap, you can replace the blow valve, mask is reusable. This is a combination CPR mask that can be hooked directly to Oxygen. Bit chunky.

Middle. Orange stick is something I knocked up as a TQ stick, alu tube with carbon inner (HHSFA) :) below that is my work pen, a Boker MPP, I got it for the window breaker and possible leverage device and it doesn't break when 3ton of ambulance drives over it. A free pen from Barclays in case I have to do a TQ and don't want to loose my posh pen (unless I have to do a second TQ) and a humble triangle bandage.

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First aid courses are ace.

From reading this thread and dealing with a couple things recently, I'd correct that to 'First Aid courses are not all created equal'.

I've done 2 courses through work and they have been all but useless.

Probably more the shite trainers that my company has but seriously, 2 day course end of last summer and the only thing I learned was how to tie a triangle bandage into a sling. Which the instructor said was for a collarbone fracture but I must have dealt with probably 75-100 collarbone fractures at work and have never put a sling on for it. People have either been chill AF and walked themselves off the track with nothing or been screaming if you went within a meter of them and have lain on the apron till the paras came and gave them some pain relief.

One of the things I had to deal with recently and felt totally unprepared for was a crash on the velodrome that involved a head wound that produced the most blood I've ever seen in real life. I suppose they did cover applying bandages and pressure and stuff in the course I did but when you walk over to find someone lying very still and very quietly with a pool of blood rapidly spreading out from where their head is, its not so easy to deal with.

I would highly recommend getting cling film for your FA box multi use including the best tri bandage I’ve used ,

First Aid has a limited scope.
It is designed this way- as the techniques taught are evidence based (ish), and ensure practicality in situations of limited to no resources.
ERC guidelines are pretty specific:
https://cprguidelines.eu/

@M_V The course taught you what you need to do.
HI are complex. All you should/can do is not move them, unless its not safe, try and stop the bleeding and wait for help to arrive.
In fact the above is pretty much the FA line in general.
Do what you've been trained to do and get help.
In that case- legally- you're (usually) covered.
(This is true of all levels of response).

As an aside-
Slings/ splints really work magic when done right. Try one on your next screamer.

No ...you can cause other secondary injuries when applying First Aid it happens eg when applying CPR on elderly people it’s very easy to break bones, when it comes to how your protected legally with First Aid the law is on your side except if you apply First Aid to someone who refuses it then this becomes assault, if you apply CPR when knowing the casualty has a DNAR certificate/letter this is also assault,

Not sure how someone will loose a limb from a tourniquet applied in the U.K. (proximity to trained medical personnel) they’re good on an injury for quite a long time (first aid course at work always includes tourniquets and putting them on - they are fucking painful)

Odd First Aid situation here earlier. Was gardening out front when a young woman on a bike appeared at our gate and asked for help... she said she was having anaphylactic reaction, not carrying her Epipen, not local either, out on a bike ride.

She was already onto 999 on her mobile but didn't know exactly where she was. We gave her the address. I phoned local docs to ask if they had an Epipen on site, they referred me to chemist a few doors down so I phoned there, he was here in minutes with one. 999 handler told patient not to use the Epi Pen, then as first paramedic arrived a couple minutes later changed this advice so she self administered.

Proper ambulance arrived soon after and she was taken away, presumably for further assessment. Neighbour agreed to move & store her bike as our ginnel access is via their front yard anyway.

First Aid is much harder at 2metre separation, just glad everything seems to have worked out ok on this occasion.

Great to hear everything worked out and that this is a case where non contact was possible, chemist will always provide a epi pen in an emergency like this, great work though

I must ask if they have one next time i pass . All merseyrail stations have defibs .

Only 2 day renewal, there's some Covid changes around cpr, worth a read up on resus.org.uk if you're qualified and not due a renewal for a while.

There's also a video on same site about covid cpr.

Nice one. This is my 4th outdoor first aid and the first I learnt of resus.org.uk - should get a mention on every course imo!

After some advice re courses.

On the return leg of a club ride this morning we came across paramedics performing cpr on a rider who’d apparently suffered a heart attack whilst out riding. Sobering to say the least and got us chatting about signing up for a group first aid course.

Does anyone have personal recommendations for a person/organisation that will do a private group session one weekend?

Thanks

In inner London if it's serious and described correctly when the 999 call is made then they will get there within 15min. Very useful understanding the wording 999 operators need to hear about the injured people rather than lots of panic and faff.

I’d be interested to know what keywords are useful here if possible. Thanks

If in London I'd be interested

I like this dudes medic kits

https://youtu.be/hcN9eiUweUM

https://youtu.be/qXJ9DKkZA1A

https://youtu.be/-3CyEcGbJr4

It will be, south east. I’ll shout when I’ve sorted something out.

Cheers buddy!

They're doing triage of sorts so want to learn how bad things are.

Are they conscious? (AVPU)
Are they breathing? Are they bleeding (heavily)? (ABC)

On first aid training I got advice on how to call stuff in from the wild succinctly, e.g. "I have an unconscious, unresponsive casualty, they're breathing and there's no sign of external bleeding."

Tbf I'm half way between 3yr renewal and that stuff is hard to recall so there may be more that others can add.

No recommendations for S.E. providers but I highly recommend 2 day outdoor courses via ITC providers, they typically put you in "real" scenarios outdoors and discuss improvising with what you have to hand, not just using resusci-Annie in a classroom.

Out of curiosity, I have what3word as a possible rescue app on my phone. Is that a viable option?

I use OS Locate, think either are useful for pinpointing where you are.

Yes.
The mapping system that the ambulance service in London use works with what3words. I believe the rest of the country is the same but can't say for certain.