Should Scotland be an independent country?

So we can live long shitty lives as a colony without the basic right to determine our own future? Do you get the government you voted for? If you don’t how would you change it? Would you deny that right to others?

I think it's very clear that if offered the option to control borders, laws and money Hurricane-run would say "no, no I don't want that".

Indeed, the Scottish government has list MSPs who were unelectable but are there under proportional representation, not a perfect system but still an improvement on the House of Lords.

This.

I’m waiting for the “what currency would you use”, bearing in mind the Bank of England was started by a Scot, HSBC etc, we have previous with groats and bawbees.

You don’t always get what you want, I mean I feel you’d have realised that by now being old enough to be a dad.

Sounds a bit like brexit!

I’m waiting for the “what currency would you use”, bearing in mind the Bank of England was started by a Scot, HSBC etc, we have previous with groats and bawbees.

My understanding is that the real currency problem with ScotIndy would not be "which currency" but when?

If Westminster says "we withdraw support for you using GBP as of day one of independence" then it's one hell of a negotiation leverage.

Makes you wonder what would have happened in Brexit if we had adopted the Euro back in 1999.

It's the opposite, the UK as a member of the EU always had control of its laws, money and borders - that it did not was a fiction. Scotland on the other hand truly doesn't control those things, so if they were honest any Brexists should whole-heartedly support Scottish Indy, but they don't seem too. Peculiar, no?

If Westminster says "we withdraw support for you using GBP as of day one of independence" then it's one hell of a negotiation leverage.

What does support mean, in this context?

Not sure. Presumably backing of the Bank of England.

I found out a bit more about this yesterday.

Basically, without the support of the bank of England as a clearing house, you can't use the currency.

And if you did, you'd have your interest rates being set by a foreign country. One that you had just pissed off.

The alternative is to change currency from GBP to something else. This raises at least two interesting questions:

what happens to everyone's mortgages that are now in a foreign currency, subject to foreign interest rates and exchange fluctuations?

what happens to all of the state pensions that are now sort of owed to your citizens by a foreign nation, that are also subject to foreign interest rates and exchange rates. Said foreign nation has no obligation to honour them and there is no international jurisdiction that can force them to.

In the same way that the US backs the use of the dollar in for e.g. the British Virgin Islands?

Sorry, I'm out of my knowledge zone now.

The Edinburgh festival and St Andrew’s uni don’t count.

Actualol.

EU law arguably always had primacy over UK law

https://europa.eu/european-union/law/legal-acts_en

See Factortame at al

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_(Factortame_Ltd)_v_Secretary_of_State_for_Transport

Scotland's separate legal system is enshrined in the Treaty of Union.

Edit in italics

But that's meaningless, as we were members of the EU and therefore made EU law.

Now we have a situation where we have to align with EU law (or face even greater sanctions than today) but have no say - and the potential future situation where Scotland makes EU law that England has to obey, with no say in it.

I guess there's a medium term physical supply issue if the BoE were massive cunts.

But as they'd join the Euro within a couple of years maybe it wouldn't be an issue. Not having any ability to pressure the BoE is unlikely to matter over that time frame.

But that's meaningless, as we were members of the EU and therefore made EU law.

Such a basic point often missed.

However, you can't honestly say that in the theoretical realm, making your laws in conjunction with 27 states is as autonomous same as doing it wholly independently.

And in that time I’ve realised that if something isn’t right you fix it or replace it. Being arsed in fact.

^^True, but if you look at how often the laws that were made were what we wanted it's a remarkable hit rate. We had huge influence, which we then pissed up the wall to become a laughing stock.

If this was 'meaningless' why did the House of Lords sit for nearly 10 years to make a ruling, through 5 separate cases on Factortame alone, on the problem of how EU law should be dealt with in terms of UK law?

Do you believe smaller countries have a right to self determination or should be in thrall to larger neighbours in perpetuity? Treaties can’t be replaced or unions broken? You don’t seem to have a high opinion of Scotland so why the determination to deny independence?

And then complain via the Mail and Express they have it in for us.

Or just cover it up? superinjunction

Cover up what? Can you answer the question?

At the time of the ref I tried to make this point a lot. Partly because I felt "conceding" to an element of the leave argument makes you look less partizan. But I followed it up with asking outside of a cute intellectual argument what the real benefit would be.

We've ended up exactly where lots of people said we'd be; a rule taker not a rule maker.

Anyway I think Scotland should stay. Stronger together and all that. They will be a small voice in Europe and eventually have their financial services sapped away as the EU introduces tougher regs which they have no power to influence. They could try and carve out a niche being physically located next to us, but I think by the time they get into the EU Ireland will be too powerful and all the other random little niches will be held by places like Malta. There is also a real risk of losing a shit tonne of money when they switch to the Euro as by leaving GBP would be decimated.