#blacklivesmatter racism is a human problem

Thanks. That's really helpful.

@jono84 - that wouldn't work because the (honest) answer would just be yes.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/11/what-black-america-means-to-europe-protests-racism-george-floyd?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Gmail

Mr Forde indeed and at the time aswad did the music for the album revolution by the late great Dennis brown . It was shot in brixton but mainly deptford new Cross. For me what's striking is that a lot of things haven't changed since the film was made.

Not sure if this is the place for this, however maybe some one here is having the same issue with racist friends/family or colleagues who seem to be coming out of the woodwork over the last few weeks.

Have you cut ties with people who were in your life due to the fact that when presented with proof they are being racist, that their opinion is not backed up by any evidence and is hurting people they jump through hoops, gaslight, lie and deflect from the real issue so that they can keep their ego intact?

Couple of links to learn a bit more about some of the terms that often come up.

What are micro aggressions?

Harvard implicit association bias
(Gaming the test doesn't mean you're "above" implicit bias - we're all human, implicit bias is part of what makes us who we are)

@Tall_Tom thanks for sharing links, I agree that we all carry implicit bias with us. I encourage everyone to take this test, more for self discovery and learning.

Thanks for the recommendation and confirming that it's as relevant now as it was then. I'm clearly no expert on many of the topics being discussed here but i do have some armchair knowledge on films. From my perspective the US has consistently produces excellent content on the subject of race and in particular the realities black people have faced in the past and present. Blindspotting, Fruitvale station and Mudbound being a few from recent times that have stood out. However there appear to be very little from the UK addressing this. It's telling that we're talking about a movie from 1980 as a reference point.

I guess what i'm getting at is that white people from the UK seem to be very comfortable digesting horrendous stories told through film from the US however we don't seem to have the appetite to face the problems on our own doorstep that we are complicit in.

No, but I am very grateful that other people did not cut me out of their lives when I displayed bigoted or incorrect views in the past. See my post a few pages back.

The race issue on many fronts is and has a far uglier legacy in the US.
That said there is an English trait of burying heads in the sand when things go wrong/ not ideal. Then blaming others when its finally time to get out and breathe.

The race issue on many fronts is and has a far uglier legacy in the US.

But i guess that's my point, i know much more about the issues in the states than the country i was born and live in. I can't gauge whether it's better or worse here because there's little being produced to challenge my views.

I don't live in Brixton, but i came across this and it seems it hasn't been mentioned in the forum yet and i thought i might as well post it here.
save nour

I didn't even touch on the fact that the asking those questions in that way (rather than asking if someone could point them to articles) is innately a racist microaggression as it implies that the question asker believes this to be new lines of inquiry and that no amount of black academics would have thought to research it previously.

I've left this a few days to work out how to shape this thought: Having discussed progressive policies and theories in a few forums and having come at some of them a bit sideways I think we need to be really careful to maintain a line between properly listening to and absorbing the experiences of others vs. the scrutiny of the models underpinning the changes we want to make in society.

Of course some people will act in bad faith and nitpick at every claim (even to the point of quibbling over people's own experiences, which is just a dick move), but a lot of people are just at a different point in their journey of understanding a wider picture. They don't know what they don't know and wouldn't even know where to look. Asking for clarification can be part of that journey, although it doesn't mean that you won't be embarrassed by having asked those questions in retrospect (as @Stonehedge noted).

Ultimately we need to try to get as many people as possible on board and by shutting the door really hard on discussion you run the risk of losing people to much less savoury corners of the internet where people do discuss things. Direct action obviously makes people aware of an issue and the support that is there for change (and BLM is so immediate and direct that the problem is obvious to more people than the wider social problems are), but if you only discuss the wider context with people who already agree with your worldview I don't see how you will bring anyone else along.

Having done research I'm familiar with that tiring feeling of "yes, we have already thought of that" (and I can only imagine how much more tiring that must be in the context of a long struggle like this). On the other hand, wider academic models and frameworks have to remain open source and have to be defended from criticism, because that's just how that field works, and that all has to take place in parallel with activism.

On the subject of the crowds. A couple of points I think often get overlooked;

Textbook social distancing isn’t always practical at a demo but reasonable efforts were made by many.

When crowd photos/footage are ‘judged’ for their attitude towards the pandemic ... are we looking at typical or worst-case examples of crowding? If we’re looking at the worst photo possible to find, totally atypical of events, why is that?

It’s not considered where the demonstrators would be otherwise. In short ... not everyone has space - people live in busy homes and use shared services.

Thanks.

@jono84 - I think origins are important. As highlighted in Stonehedge's reply, before the explosion of social media a fair few people in the UK were probably able to go through their lives without really coming into contact with vocal racism. And if you're part of the norm systemic racism can pass unnoticed in a way that explicit racist legislation or racist violence simply can't.

What is interesting is that today the conversation seems to essentially about racism at all levels which is something that probably applies to every society everywhere.

I miss Stef

Gary Younge talking about violence and Black Lives Matter in this moment in time, and a rebuttal to those who say rioting/violence is never justified.
Very considered.
“Riots are often justified, what’s the French Revolution but a riot blessed by history”

Found on facebook, originally posted here.
https://www.doubledown.news/watch/2020/5/june/black-lives-matter-george-floyd-the-question-of-violence-gary-young

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGFwxcjAbnM&feature=emb_title

Shame there isn't a upvote/kudos (but this and the klj video before) would get one from me.
I'd never heard of DDN before but now a patreon

from Musa Okwonga's piece linked to earlier

Their revulsion at Floyd’s murder has quickly turned not to compassion but to relief: they have comforted themselves that they are not as base or hateful as those Yanks, that these atrocities could not happen in their countries. These people are united by denial. Simone Zeefuik, the Dutch writer and cultural programmer, recently took to Twitter and observed: “France, Denmark, Belgium, Germany, the Netherlands… My [timeline] is filled [with] people from various Afrodiasporic communities in Europe who are (re)tweeting a similar message: ‘The media here gags at racism in the US while failing to address the racism in the country where we live’.”
Among these white people, the murder of George Floyd has not been used as a moment for introspection but as a sort of wine tasting of white supremacy, where Europeans take a sip of vintage American racism and proudly declare that it tastes much more sour than theirs. I sometimes feel that, instead of asking black people how they feel about yet another gruesome death of a black person at police hands, the media should go up to random white people in the street and demand: “Yet another death due to police brutality. How does this make you feel? What can you as white people do to stop it?” After all, black people are constantly and collectively expected to be accountable for our trauma, to relate it as eloquently and concisely as we can for white people to digest

I've been off facebook for coming up to 18mths before lockdown, and wasn't particularly fussed about returning. But despite residing in a left leaning artistic/creative bubble on there, some friends (both BAME and White) have posted up some really insightful videos and infographics about the current situation.
I'd not heard of DDN either, but I've always admired Gary Younge, from his time being the guardian's US correspondent. Always insightful, always considered.

Do you think your friends would have reacted in the same way if you had been less open to being challenged on your beliefs at the time?

My wife sent me this last week in reference to the whole 'nour' thing - https://thequietus.com/articles/28302-housekeeping-faces-review

How does this make you feel?

The social media explosion last week made me feel repulsed, deeply uncomfortable - what registered as virtue signalling has at least forced me to read more and pushed me into thinking about what I can do in my day to day work to enact some form of change: the need to change was not a new concept, but it highlighted my utter lack of urgency. Perhaps I'm realising it's better to be wrong sooner and learn and adapt, than dither for fear of taking a shameful misstep?

I am still hiding behind 'educating myself', digesting inequity porn, shamefully paralysed.

Interesting article, cheers

Going to be doing a lot of reading of this thread.

I can guarantee I have made some faux pas in the past due to where I was born and where/how I grew up (got older really).

Also aware when privilege has played a part in my life - 99% sure I wouldn't be where I am now without the head start.

I used to joke it was my accent (although it has mellowed after 15 years in London) that got me out of a lot of trouble with the police but thinking it was more than that.

Keen to get better. Not sure what else I can contribute, feel wholly unqualified and under educated.

Have you cut ties with people who were in your life due to the fact that when presented with proof they are being racist, that their opinion is not backed up by any evidence and is hurting people they jump through hoops, gaslight, lie and deflect from the real issue so that they can keep their ego intact?

I haven't needed to (thank fuck), but you might find this post from a couple of days ago interesting: https://captainawkward.com/2020/06/05/1272-white-family-facebook-drama-over-police-racism/ - it's US-centric but there are some interesting insights there.

@chokalateboywonder thanks for posting this thread. Obviously I don't need to tell you it's very necessary. I'm glad you did it.

@BigH your 3am post about identifying as a Londoner outside of accepting a national identity was really interesting! I think it makes a lot of sense.

Not much to add just now but will echo others in saying it's absolutely great that this thread was started and even more so to see the forum overwhelmingly showing solidarity with the movement. I've certainly learned a lot in the last few weeks, and challenging conversations with family members who crucially are better placed to go on to influence their contemporaries if you can get through to them have certainly become much more frequent, but in this moment it feels like the absolute least one can do (alongside donating to certain black-led orgs supporting the cause if you can).

I would just share two thing that have particularly rocked me in the last few weeks (other than the statues coming down). First has been learning how bail and community bail funds in the US actually work, which I had absolutely zero idea about before this all kicked off and is absolutely incredible, you can read about it here: https://twitter.com/ninocipri/status/1267877346230534145

And the other is that same Gary Younge video someone posted earlier. I honestly think he is one of the best writers alive and working in Britain today and it's incredibly clarifying to hear him speak on this. https://www.doubledown.news/watch/2020/5/june/black-lives-matter-george-floyd-the-question-of-violence-gary-young