Extinction Rebellion

I don’t think it’s the right approach to penalise people for flying, it’s a mode of travel not a luxury.

I know people have normalised flying and some solo car travel (roughly equivalent in Co2). That’s their choice. However... as a society we currently under tax air travel (that is an established fact). So why are we subsiding it when the system should factor-in the environmental harm? It’s crazy.

You pay VAT on bike chains, innertubes, petrol and diesel. But not on jet travel? With all due respect .... gtfo (by low carbon means).

:)

Luckily XR doesn’t require you or I to agree on the above, just to abide by their principles and support demands on government: tell the truth.

Business as usual is going to kill us.

So the plan is to extinguish social mobility. If you're born somewhere shit then that's it for you and your progeny.

I can see why this message is a hard sell.

Tl:dr thread recap: to tell the truth is to extinguish social mobility?

I'd say social mobility was taken away from us years ago by the generation that profited most from it.

All we have is cheap flights and a varied diet.

Watched the David Attenborough documentary last night, and what struck me is that we each need to be responsible for our own carbon output and how we can individually reduce it. One idea for how I can help is trying to get more people onto renewable energy so below is the referral link for bulb, which you might have seen, or already be on. But a slight twist I’ll also give you my referral bonus, so you’ll get £100 as well as cheaper and renewalable energy

https://bulb.co.uk/refer/davidm3082

*Jet engines burn what is essentially diesel fuel, and inevitably produce volumes of NOx

No, jet fuel is essentially paraffin (or kerosine in the US) and is much less dense than diesel, which is more like an oil. Jet fuel, like petrol, is a solvent.

Density of jet fuel:0.804kg/l
Density of diesel; 0.832kg/l

https://youtu.be/Yz246_Pjjkc

I’d say for an engineer (and depending on your parameters) 0.028kg/l could be a significance. Not that I want to side with any comments otherwise, just that I bet it’s still significant for a fluid.

I don't think there is a plan, the current system is too complex to simply unpick. I'd like to see the plan if there is one.

Social Mobility will still exist outside of Capitalism, the route upwards and measures of social status may differ though.

Yes, the low carbon message is a hard sell as it changes just about everything. The choice being explained to us seems to be that it is that, or human extinction, which would you choose?

We all realise that this is a very complex and probably socially disruptive issue.
XR have collectively motivated lots of people to attempt to tackle it, before it is too late to halt it.
It is this: If we don't remove carbon from the economy in 12 years (actually less, that timeline is already 6 months old) the climate change will run away out of control. It is hugely complex in itself (not just the societal implications) For example some of the pollutants in the atmosphere are helping to cool it. If we stop producing them how much faster will the climate warm?
So we need the government to put in the same amount of commitment it put in when the banks collapsed (or perhaps more) instead of pissing around trying to leave the one organisation that has a chance of tackling this issue collectively on a continent wide scale.

Miro o Maybe but tell Caroline Lucas that when she has said flights perhaps once every few years. Also jets flying half full is a waste but if you have paid for a ticket and the palne won't fly unless it's full would cause some consternation. Also why did Emma Thomson fly over from LA? Seems a bit wasteful as does all the litter left. As for folk gluing themselves to Waterloo bridge id leave them there. Simply doing that is wasting police time as they can't be left there and undermines the validity of the "protest" in my eyes.

In any case I rode to work again as I do every day and my lunch today is baked potatoes and baked beans. Not because it green, because it cheap, filling and fuels me.

One practical issue maybe you campaigners can bring up is recycling. First waste should be recycled in The u.k, there enough of it and businesses like mine should have the option of recycling. Currently all my council offers is card board recycling but Joe blogs public fill my card recycling bin full of there fucking rubbish which pisses me off and if you see me in my big blue bin you'll understand why I might not be so polite. Metal and plastic waste is in the general refuse. There is no extra recycling offered like there is at home with the same council. Therefore business need help too. Then I would probably get charged for 4 bin collections rather than 2. No point in being green if adds to the cost base and is optional. I think that's a solvable issue if government gave a monkeys.

As for middle ground why let the most "extreme" make the most noise because that's all people like me hear.

Ah, all the litter left! Without any planning in advance people at XR went out and litter picked. They cleared their own litter and they cleared the litter left behind by others. So, unless you were actually there to see it stop believing the trite rubbish posted to smear the campaign.
I don't think you get it yet. You keep eating your baked potatoes and cycling to work and worrying about your recycling. You keep doing your bit. We all should. But the scale of change needed requires action by governments too, and the campaign is aimed at them as much as anyone.
The really lovely side to the rebellion is how many people care, really care, and are prepared to make enormous sacrifice to make change.

First waste should be recycled in The u.k.

It’s gonna be spendy but I agree with this.

Are they prepared for the sacrifice?

I ask this as the throwing away of plastic / oil economy isn't easy when you look at science and healthcare and advances made.

I agree something has to be done, making small changes in our lives will make small changes bigger.

Convincing people they need to go back on time (when judged by economic and health and "owning stuff" metrics) is a hard ask. And will easily set up a them and us. Unless we completely overthrow the right wing capitalist groove machine while keeping the things we've got accustomed to. Like not dying early.

great thread,. reading this with some familiar posters on here given me a look into whats happening in London. Roll on LFGSS for discussion.
One point to make. wrapped up in this whole thread thing that gets to me continually is that neo-liberalism makes individuals feel responsible, e.g the plastics thing, the veganism thing- its part of the the same capitalist system we live in- you are made to feel responsible for everything- but you shouldnt be.
so from what I can make out ER would agree that its the respectable elected members of society who happily co-exist alongside everyone else who have the decision making power to change what masses do. But theyre not.
Correct me if Im wrong anyway Im off to weed the allotment. bollocks to it all.

Sorry fella I stopped reading. That’s just littered with whataboutisms.

I’ll just remind you that all of your ideas are welcome for discussion within XR. And if you believe we urgently need more action on environmental issues ... you’re on their side.

will easily set up a them and us

This is true. Media coverage always looks to do this to a degree.

There is huge emphasis in workshops etc around ‘othering’ and how it is counterproductive. They’re aware it’s no good.

The debate around the balance of personal sacrifice vs tech dev etc in mitigation climate change will rumble on. XR are primarily concerned with governments being honest about the danger, and debating it. Here are the core principles btw.
https://rebellion.earth/the-truth/about-us/#principles

XR are primarily concerned with governments being honest about the danger, and debating it.

Demand 2, is far beyond debating, to achieve it in that time frame would send the uk into recession, involve closing whole industries and make everyone in the nation considerably financially and welfarewise worse off to achieve it. It would make austerity and no deal Brexit look like a walk in the park. I am not commenting on the right and wrong of demand two given the severity of ecological collapse but to say XRs main concern is debate appears to be severely downplay the impact they would have on people if they are successful in thier demands

First waste should be recycled in The u.k

At the risk of being boring, in the first instance waste should, of course, be avoided. Reduce, reuse, recycle, with recycle being a distant third (or wherever it occurs in expanded versions of this list, as there are quite a few more 'r's to be added to it in various ways).

It's really annoying that recycling has become the assumed most important thing to do. I always suspect that must be because the word is more eye-catching and because making things disappear into the great blue recycling yonder seems so much easier than not generating waste in the first place.

There is obviously a lot of plastic waste in the oceans that dates back decades, but could the attempt to increase recycling rates instead of incinerating waste also be partly responsible for the huge amount of plastic rubbish around? In Germany, this started with the 'yellow sacks' 'recycling' regime introduced in the early 90s, when a much better law that would have reduced waste at source was scuppered. Soon afterwards, 'yellow sacks' were discovered dumped all over Europe and I wouldn't be surprised if much of this stuff also found its way into the sea. It also seems likely that 'recycling' from Britain would have gone the same way.

One point to make. wrapped up in this whole thread thing that gets to me continually is that neo-liberalism makes individuals feel responsible, e.g the plastics thing, the veganism thing- its part of the the same capitalist system we live in- you are made to feel responsible for everything- but you shouldnt be.
so from what I can make out ER would agree that its the respectable elected members of society who happily co-exist alongside everyone else who have the decision making power to change what masses do. But theyre not.

True, one problem is always this mantra of putting the responsibility on everyone when everyone has much less power than some sound legislation would have. Obviously, legislation sometimes misfires, but it's still a better way of changing things than lots of small actions. Needless to say, then the usual buck-passing circularity starts: 'Oh, but it's not the will of the people (yet), so we can't legislate for it', etc.

They probably just added ‘net zero’ so that Gove can’t claim it’s all in-hand.

It pains me to say this ;-)
But some very wise words there.

Dunno if you’ve seen this?
26 DEATHS per day in London due to pollution . If this were knife crime or terrorism the press would wet their knickers. But hey it’s only pollution. Guardian article with the Kings College citation here:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/jul/15/nearly-9500-people-die-each-year-in-london-because-of-air-pollution-study

China doesn’t have this problem. But I don’t think we want to be China.

I just want environmental cost to be paid by the consumer and a concerted move to cleaner technologies. These are totally compatible with capitalism. If you need to take big money out of politics fine. There are ways.