EU referendum, brexit and the aftermath

Politics in 'fucking mucky' shocker

For what it's worth, I have never met somebody on LFGSS who thinks austerity was the correct policy.

Also, I think the whole point of what some people here are saying is that agreeing with an otherwise shitty MP about one topic does not mean you are a "fanboy". Whatever that really means.

But it's basically true isn't it? You view the world as binary. I genuinely don't think that is a controversial point based on your posts.

Seems the neolibz are more concerned with tackling the direction of brexit rather than accepting their role in how we got here in the first place.

The wealth gap and poverty are only one part of where we are right now.

How many perfectly well off middle-class older voters have we all come across who voted to leave? How often do you hear Brexiters say they're happy to pay the ~£2k it's meant to cost each household?

As great as tackling underlying structural issues is, it is a mammoth long term task. Resolving the direction of Brexit is the priority right now, because this is the tipping point.

And +1 to Dammit's post.

I'm sure a number of people on here think austerity has been the right thing.

Lol where?

If ever there was an economically centre-left to left leaning forum/echo-chamber, it's this one.

It is also possible to think Labour has been a disgrace on Freedom of Movement (tightening the rules for EU immigrants and UK emigrants is seen as equality, ok...why not make the argument to really ditch the visa system?) and Brexit (whipping A50 with no plan, great thinking...) but still see them as better than the Tories in all other aspects.

But the FPTP voting system doesn't really allow compromise like STV.

In STV you may not get your first candidate...but you will get somebody allied with them, so they won't be a million miles off. So you can vote Greens first, if they can't get in for your area, you may get Labour. Or Tories first (yuck) but you get the LibDems so you are stil sorta happy.

How to get to STV with citizen assemblies though...I really don't know. All parties would need to support it OR a coalition minority party needs to put it on the table (the Greens might) OR the UK needs to go yellow vests on Westminster.

Blinking ERG seem to finally be realising it's likely to be her deal or probably no Brexit. Will she scrape the vote through? Would big pro remain Torries play the old role of the ERG and vote it down in the hope of second ref / revocation?

^ This was always my fear - that at the last minute, it would scrape through.

I wonder if any of the folks who have supported the deal in past, now see some benefit in seeing it off, as no deal seems so unlikely...Could some switch back the other way?

Scary times. Now Mogg is falling into line, it's just the DUP left....

if consensus isn't reached, it opens the door to revocation or a people's vote as all democratic options within parliament will have been exhausted.

Revocation would require not just the consensus that had just been (yet again) shown to not exist, it would require some strong leadership to drive a decision that most MPs who secretly think it's a good idea are scared of.

A people's vote has more chance because

1. MPs can say "I'm only voting for this because all those other bastards wouldn't agree with my sensible proposals". 650 people standing in a circle, wishing they had 649 arms to point and blame all the others.
   
2. A lot of the blame for what happens next can be offloaded to "the people".
   
   

Will there be an amendment on MV3 to try to turn it into a confirmation vote?

That will be interesting....Imagine if the confirmation amendment passes - would the government then still support their own Meaningful Vote?

I couldn't say. I was at somebody's leaving drinks last night and didn't reconnect with this thread till the morning. As a result, I no longer know what's been happening and it'll take hours of synching between here, Twitter and the various editorials before I'm back on track.

Yeah. You absolutely cannot have revocation unless it's voted for by us schmucks.

We don't "accept" votes. We don't enter into the equation.

What we don't have to do is applaud people simply because one of their opinions coincides with one of ours.

But people can be Grieve fanboys if they want. I'm sure a number of people on here think austerity has been the right thing.

Playing these rhetorical games is at least partially to blame for us being where we are.

I enjoyed Micheal Jacksons "Thriller"≠I am an enthusiastic paedophile

Well, I wouldn't say I was an enthusiastic paedophile, but....

I assume when she brings it back for MV3 that's when the Kyle amendment will be raised. Requires full Labour whipping and a good chunk of pro remain Torry support to pass though, would be super tight.

super tight

Huh huh huh

'We' are anyone who opposed the flatearth brexiteur Brexit in any way,
writing to an MP, joining a local campaign, or attending either of the Marches,
any one who has in any way contributed to counter the oft-repeated claim by the
media hogging brexiteurs who claim, without demur from their interviewers,
'All I hear in my constituency is 'Get on with It''.

I hope we have passed, forever*, the time when parliamentary majorities allow the 'Winner' to ignore the 'Loser'. Consensus can only be achieved by finding common ground,
on each invididual topic. Welcoming Dominic Grieve 'seeing the light' over brexit does not give him a free pass on being a Universal Benefit supporting Tory.

We will need a couple of more enlightened Parliaments until this is achieved.

We will need a couple of more enlightened Parliaments until this is achieved.

We'll also need a significantly more sophisticated electorate who can see the world other than in black and white absolutes. Sadly, as this thread sometimes shows, we are not there yet.

ugh, what a nasty piece of work you are.

Well, it's kind of true. The press have been cultivating a them and us dynamic for decades and government policy further marginalised people. The North South divide doesn't help either.

People now days seem more likely to blame people who have different opinions rather than the cunts in power who have the power to change things.

From personal experience, the countries that teach basic theory in schools about how their democracy and parliament's work and tend to have a lot less of this "enemy of the people" and traitor attitude that we seem to have a lot of here for example

Sorry for the post bomb but are kids even taught how to challenge what they read and learn debate skills at school any more?

first up, the implication that people are too stupid to be trusted with anything so portentous as the ability to participate in democracy is fucked.

For many people, the choices they face ARE stark, and being in a position to make a nuanced choice, because the fallout from that choice is unlikely to affect you or anyone you give a shit about, is in many ways is the preserve of the privileged few.

Hopefully we can all agree that education is probably the best way out of all of this, but sadly that seems to be more out o reach than ever for marginalised folks, and i think we all know who we have to thank for that particular outcome.

/edit - i see you touched on education in your subsequent posts and i think you're absolutely fucking on the money there. high five!

I didn't see any suggestion that the electorate are stupid.

i was referring to r/enlightenedcentrism posterboi dan wotnot's drivel but your postapalooza got in the way.

Everyone...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy