EU referendum, brexit and the aftermath

I think that the process of Parliament proving that it is unable to reach consensus might be as valuable as it actually reaching consensus.

^ salient

I suspect that this is actually the main reason that there has been a push for these votes. Either outcome will be seen as positive-ish. Parliament will be seen as doing something to challenge May's bullshit and if consensus isn't reached, it opens the door to revocation or a people's vote as all democratic options within parliament will have been exhausted.

^ let's hope so

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47701685

Meanwhile it looks like settled status has more problems that previously reported, this time around benefits. FFS I thought they had that all written in the law already

Not sure it was centrists that caused this one... unless you have a very funny idea of centrist.

I was giving this for granted after the last time I asked for benefits... 12th tasks of Asterix comes to mind

Can I move to Spain yet?

No. Ten more years in this shithole for you!

fair enough, fwiw, i'm generally referring to the sort of neoliberal welfare reformers exemplified by cameron, osborne and their enablers in the wider conservative party and the lib dems. hell, you can chucka fair few Labour culprits on that pile as well.

There seems to be no shortage of people in this very thread who seem all too ready to overlook the impact and eventual fallout of austerity on some of the most vulnerable parts of society, if only for a few crumbs of validation from the architects of this shitshow, which is disappointing.

Of course i am conflating "centrism" with "neoliberalism", which isn't really that much of a stretch, at least not from where i'm sat. Seems the neolibz are more concerned with tackling the direction of brexit rather than accepting their role in how we got here in the first place.

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

funny idea of centrist.

centrist = anyone who GH disagrees with, that can't be characterised as a fascist.

Hope that clears that up for you.

Someone more mathematically minded than me can probably come up with a neat equation.

christ you're tiresome.

exemplified by cameron, osborne and their enablers in the wider conservative party and the lib dems

I'm not sure they were really centrists - certainly I wouldn't label them as such and some of what they did was extreme. I'd label the early Blair years as more 'centrist', and people like Osbourne and Cameron just seemed to dress and behave the same to try to appeal to the same supporters.

I'm sure someone (possibly you) will step in to say how awful those early Blair years were, but at the time they stood out as one of the few times I've experienced positive politics and its effects in this country.

you mean the same Blair under whom the income gap widened to its highest level since thatcher? ok man, if you say so.

The enemy of my enemy and all that

There seems to be no shortage of people in this very thread who seem all too ready to overlook the impact and eventual fallout of austerity on some of the most vulnerable parts of society, if only for a few crumbs of validation from the architects of this shitshow, which is disappointing.

I don't think that this is true.

Austerity is bad, no doubt, and those who inflicted it on the poorest and most vulnerable must own the choices that they made.

I can, and do, condemn said choices.

That does not mean that I cannot support the choices that they make when I believe that they are positive - a stopped clock is correct twice per day.

For e.g. applauding Grieve when he supports a choice on, and potentially a beneficial resolution to Brexit does not mean that one is also validating his voting record on austerity, or indeed any other issue.

By the same token condemning Corbyn for his stance on Brexit does not mean that one condemns his stance on for e.g. people paying their taxes.

To insist that people cannot make a correct, good or beneficial choice because they have previously made a poor one is to condemn most, if not all of us.

i worry that in supporting these people there is a risk that there is an unspoken endorsement of their ideology, that the status quo is the only viable solution, and that once the status quo has been reestablished, then it's back to the business of pissing on the poor and fuck all changes for those that need it the most and then it's brexit all over again in 10 years time and we're all standing here scratching our balls asking "how the hell did this happen?"

thanks for not calling me a cunt etc.

I agree, that risk is very real. However, in our current situation I feel that we have to run that future risk to defeat the current one.

The enemy of our enemy is, for this purpose, if not our friend then our ally - however temporary.

Else we run the risk of a Tory government that is freed from the restraint of the EU, which would be the worst of all worlds.

If only you could implode the DWP by asking for a form that doesn't exist :)

The politicians clearly don't use their own systems...

If I'm honest, I feel like @greenhell has a point, someone who is seen to "make a stand" and vote the way you (people on here) want regarding brexit, but who has a really terrible voting history, doesn't make me want to applaud them. It makes me think, "What the fuck are they playing at? What is their angle in this?"

If Brexit gets cancelled and Article 50 revoked, the people who have been getting fucked for the last 10+ years will continue getting fucked. If Brexit happens, more people will be fucked.

I don't want Brexit as much as anyone else on here, but I'd like people to contemplate the possibility that just because they'll be OK if Brexit gets stopped, other people might be made worse off if terrible deals are struck behind closed doors to achieve that. That's the sort of shit I wouldn't put past a grade A** fucking cunt like Grieve.

Or alternatively he might just think that the way that Brexit has been handled and the way the government are conducting themselves is a disgrace. Or what you said.

If 'we' don't accept the votes of MPs who have some or one redeeming feature,
we're left with Caroline Lucas,
and
I don't see any likelihood in Parliamentary votes based upon a single vote and 649 abstentions.

If we're going to get out of this in anyway, we're going to need some dodgy conservatives to see some kind of light. Heidi Allen is the other one that always comes up - she has an appalling voting record, but at some point, seemed to realise she was wrong....can never tell if its just posturing and positioning, and I still wouldn't trust her an inch.

My only hope is that post Brexit, what ever happens, politics is changed. The only good thing that could come out of this is the implosion of the conservative party as we know it.

I certainly wouldn't be surprised if we went back to the default legal position of referendums being seen as undermining parliamentary sovereignty. Hopefully there will be wider constitutional reform than that.

If 'we' don't accept the votes of MPs who have some or one redeeming feature...

We don't "accept" votes. We don't enter into the equation.

What we don't have to do is applaud people simply because one of their opinions coincides with one of ours.

But people can be Grieve fanboys if they want. I'm sure a number of people on here think austerity has been the right thing.