Can aluminium be heat treated twice?

Had similar issues in the past . Get a refund asap dont drag it out .

Heat treatment really depends on the grade of aluminium.

I think what you’ve described, however, points to further issues which sound like they’ll lead to more pain later. You’re not happy with the product and it’s not what you ordered. Sounds like you’ve either paid with PayPal or a credit card though. You can just request a refund through either of them and they’ll just refund you no further questions asked. They’ll either write it off or chase the money from Spooky but that’s their buyer protection guarantee. Just do that and be done with.

Should have got a sweet NJS frame with rainbow sparkles tbh.

Not what you ordered. Full refund, you should not be out of pocket for any costs.

If they're lucky you won't totally burn them for wasting your time.

To be honest I could forgive a mistake in QC if they dealt with it in a way that would inspire confidence in the brand but if they're just trying to fob him off they deserve to be burned.

I looked at their t&c/warranty section- they're trying to impose pretty dubious limitations of their liability via distance selling by insisting on replacement or repair at their discretion.

PayPal terms trumps their t&C's though as Spooky have to accept them to use the service, I'd just go through PayPal as they are more likely to side with you and refund once frame shipped back. You should be able to claim the import tax from the government too but might be a ball ache.

You will need to share your emails with Spooky and probably best phoning a PP customer service agent and being super nice too to explain everything and make sure they put it all in the system...

It's too big a chunk of change to get fucked around over at any rate!

I’d be looking for a refund too, but I don’t think your original question is a concern.

Tubes come ready heat treated and are then assembled into a bike frame. There are no issues welding the “already heat treated” tubes together, so there’s no issue welding something onto a tube that’s now part of a frame.

What doesn’t happen is weld a bunch of tubes together and then “heat treat” the resulting frame!

Apologies if I’ve completely missed the point here....

What doesn’t happen is weld a bunch of tubes together and then “heat treat” the resulting frame!

The joints of 6061 alloy frames need heat-treating after welding.

I'm not sure this is correct. The process of welding tubes stresses them, i.e you apply a lot of heat and the alloy crystalises unevenly on each side of the weld. Annealing the metal by heat treating the frame post construction evens this back out, reducing the risk of it cracking at the weak points.

Some alloys (the lower end stuff) have a far lesser risk of cracking this way, but they're heavier and thicker tubes anyway. Higher end i.e 7000 grade, is the thin suff that needs post-welding annealing to de-stress. Which is exactly the opposite of what you're saying I think...

Also, welding itself has to be done without introducing impurities into the welds, hence TIG using inert gas. So again, doing any supplementary work on a frame after re-stripping it, increases the risk of both if not done under the same conditions as original manufacture. Not impossible, but still, a risk.

If we were talking a Cannondale they would replace as a matter of course, it's not worth the time or risk to do a repair they can't guarantee in the same way as a new frame. Buying custom should mean getting better service and product than OTP, not worse imhop...

Spookily bad customer service, this.

Are Ali frames heat treated after building? I didn’t know that - guess I assumed it was the same as steel in that regard, individual tubes are heat treated in different ways by the tube manufacturer, but the built frame itself is not then heat treated.

I still don’t really get the difference between adding a disk mount to a tube just after frames been built and now (except of course all the extra stripping and painting work). The same rules apply and the same standards are needed in the workmanship.

Thanks for all the replies and info everyone. Appreciate the input.

Sorry for my slow reply, been getting my MTB thing on at Brechfa. 👍

Still haven't heard from them, but in their defence its the weekend and I'd rather they take their time to come back with a considered response. But everyone's opinions have cemented my view to not take any nonsense from them.

Thanks again.

Steel and Alu are different innit.

What’s the actual difference in process though? Does an Ali frame need to be stuck in an oven after it’s built?

If I’m going to weld a mount on to a chain stay, what would I do different on an Ali frame than a steel?

Does an Ali frame need to be stuck in an oven after it’s built?

Yeah.

https://m.pinkbike.com/news/To-the-Point-Heat-Treating-Aluminum-Frames.html

As people said, it'll depend on what alloy to an extent, but yeah.

Thanks - interesting !

Because I'm a saddo who reads about aluminium heat treating before 6am, I can't find an immediate reason why heat treating the frame again would be a bad idea. I'm also not 100% sure that it would be necessary for an additional cable guide (if I understand the task correctly).

The weld (AIUI) will be weaker than the rest of the aluminium, but I don't know that a cable guide would need to be structurally strong, and some aluminium frames were never heat treated anyway.

Given the cost and complexity of heat treatment (which involves controlled quenching and pretty quick realignment of the frame due to the deformity it creates,) I wonder how many small scale custom aluminium frames are heat treated at all...

But I'm not a materials scientist or even a man who knows what he's on about.

You sound very knowledgeable. Thanks for the input. Clearly you have strong powers of Google. 💪

Ha, thanks. Sorry to hear about your mither in any case.

I'm happy to be told otherwise in my points above, btw. I've just been looking into building my own aluminium frame recently, so had to do some reading. TLDR: I'm not sure it's practical.

The link snottyotter posted is pretty comprehensive and explains it all.

Tldr. Yes, you do need to do it, and yes, small frame builders do do it. Because you have to if you want to have teeth.

Did the frame builder say they were going to re-treat it as part of the repair?

Also curious: what aluminium alloy(s) do they use?

EDIT: Not meant for ubey, but @yetidamo

Update for those who are interested. I'll try to keep it to the bullet points:

Yesterday the co-owner contacted me to say that he was personally taking ownership of this situation, that they're looking at how this happened, but most importantly (from my perspective) what they can do to rectify it to my satisfaction. Reading between the lines I think heads have rolled.

This evening he has emailed me again to offer 2 options:

1) They'll send me some temporary zip tie-able fixings to allow me to use the frame I have so that I have something to ride whilst they build me a brand new frame which they'll then to me as a replacement. This would allow me to get what I ultimately wanted and paid for (eventually) but I'd have the hassle and cost of having to build the thing twice.
2) If that's not to my liking they'll collect the frame and issue me a refund.

The fact that he's offered option 2 has reassured me quite a lot and makes me more inclined to go for option 1. He's shown empathy and engagement in putting this right which was lacking in previous communication.

I'm really not sure what to do so I've asked a few questions and said I'll need to sleep on it rather than rush a decision.

I'm pleased to hear this is the result! I think I'd go ahead and take the replacement frame to be honest, Spooky bikes still look incredible and I'd love to own one and I think they've done a good job of dealing with the situation now after a rocky start!

Also this...

They'll send me some temporary zip tie-able fixings

Uh oh