EU referendum, brexit and the aftermath

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-47652775

DUP still stuck in the "we don't want a no-deal but also don't want the WA" groove

Doing that carries the risk of ultimately destroying or critically undermining democracy in the UK

This argument is based on the misrepresentation of a referendum being binding as opposed to advisory. As someone correctly pointed out above, 44m did not vote Leave. For a situation with such complexity and profound impact for not just everyone in the UK now, but who are affected by this, and future generations, then it is absurd to defer a decision of such magnitude to the disgruntled, misled and poorly informed 'thug in the pub'. A referendum provides information to elected leaders who are supposed to deal with the depth and complexity of real facts to reach decisions in the best interest of their electorate, as such objectiveness is required, as is a two-way communication back to the electorate. More democracy is NOT undemocratic and is the rational and fair thing to do in such a situation, as the precedent set by other, better functioning democracies sets precedent for with second referendums based on better informed positions and ahead of decisions of profound importance.

According to polls .... Most popular positions with the public currently are;

1. 2nd referendum (what choice?)
   
2. No deal leave
   
   

So yeah. Her position isn’t reflective of the public’s unless you count people’s second choice ... in which case The Deal (that doesn’t completely throw NI under the bus) would probably win (but that’s just speculation - no data)

It’s a mess, but everyone should just vote for the deal.

This argument is based on the misrepresentation of a referendum being binding as opposed to advisory.

Not really, it’s based on the referendum being advisory but Article 50 being binding ... and 498 PM’s being elected at a general election having declared that position personally and in their respective party manifestos.

Responsible leadership would be to make a statement that in light of everything that has transpired, the negative implications and complexities of Brexit were vastly underestimated and with the impasse, the country faces the risk of grave upset and a highly uncertain future.
Revoking A50 to preserve stability and proceeding to address the issues that have led to such grave discontent in part of the population is the responsible decision, with a commitment to hold a referendum at a future date (X years down the line) should the situation not change.

Supporting the decision and statement with all of the misrepresentation of facts, the lies, the illegalities which need to be investigated, the known's of massive disinvestment from large corporations and the relocations happening or planned of SME's as well as the inability to replace the massive benefits that the EU does confer on the UK would cast things in a very different light.

Unfotunately, honesty or responsibility do not seem to be the strongest traits in politicians.

Thanks. I mistook the point.

the negative implications and complexities of Brexit were vastly underestimated

Is this fact? That’s a massive assumption of the motivations of a group of voters.

Do you have a strong track record of understanding the motivations of leave voters?

Yeah I get that, but as above, that ship has sailed.

Is this fact? That’s a massive assumption of the motivations of a group of voters.

In stark contrast to the 'great for business' and 'attracting investment' what has emerged is disinvestment and capital flight, to the extent that in the event of a No Deal, it's conceivable that a crisis may occur at some point in which capital controls become necessary. The risk of a vicious spiral of disinvestment, negative economic impacts, an over leveraged economy reliant on imports, and a country in a weak financial position with a reliance upon other countries to reinvest their surpluses to support national debt is not a good situation to be in.

The replacement of trade agreements has evidently not met expectations of being easy, timely, and the bargaining power of the UK has been massively overestimated.

Do you have a strong track record of understanding the motivations of leave voters?

Perhaps not. From what I've seen, which I haven't studied in great detail, it seems that the split between Remain and Leave centres around metropolitan vs small urban/ fringe UK and a generational effect. That marginalisation which has caused the observed split has been the result of the policies of successive governments which have not been serving the nation as a whole and have polarised wealth and opportunity. The referendum provided the first real opportunity for the disgruntled to say 'i'm pissed off with the way things are". Unfortunately, a lot of people's discontent has been manipulated to be misfocused on anything but the source of the problems.

Maybe not. TM could still act in the best interest of the nation. It's funny that all the old PM's and very seasoned politicians either in office, like Ken Clarke, or who formerly held high positions, all say the same thing now that they have no real personal upside in political careers and seem to view things as what's best for the country as a whole, and with the benefit of having far greater insight into the complexities of this than we do.

TM could still act in the best interest of the nation.

She thinks she is. She thinks she's trying to solve the 'mad riddle' by inflicting as little damage as possible whilst honouring the ref. and the result of the GE.

It's funny that all the old PM's and very seasoned politicians either in office, like Ken Clarke

Yeahbut the buck doesn't stop with them - their historical legacy is settled, their story is done.

Any which way round, the fundamental cause of all of our problems is our inherent selfishness and hardness of heart and this has manifested in a tragic way. Irrespective of any outcome, this only affects our situation, but the misery will continue unless we start to really care about each other, individually, and collectively.

I know it freaks people out when God is mentioned, but the two simple commands of 1. Love God (for the life we have been blessed with and all the blessings that we do have) and 2. Love one another (treat everyone else as we would ourselves) become so salient and the failure of us to do this ourselves results in our own misery, and to do this collectively, ends in societal disaster.

And you were doing so well

She thinks she is. She thinks she's trying to solve the 'mad riddle' by inflicting as little damage as possible whilst honouring the ref. and the result of the GE.

I'm never sure what to think about her whether she is genuine and bungling, or untrustworthy. However, I don't think any of us would want to be in her position and taking her at face value, then she is very persistent and has endured something that would have broken most people into jibbering wrecks.

Yeahbut the buck doesn't stop with them - their historical legacy is settled, their story is done.

That's true, but I think we, as a society, massively undervalue the wisdom and experience of the aged - which in traditional cultures was, and is, highly valued - and glorify the energy and ambition of youth which has the propensity to repeat mistakes.

I think you'll find:
best interests of UK < best interests of Conservative party < best interests of TM

:) sorry! I have experienced some pretty deep stuff in recent years that does lead me to believe that our life is some kind of battle for souls and that God is very real. I don't shove this in people's faces, but our release from the misery, suffering we end up in life is in realisation of that.

When you look at the poll trends (a month or so out of date admittedly) there isn't a huge swing to remaining. A large part of the population are still pro-leave.

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Mormonism alive and well.

So what you’re saying is that some politicians lied? Best cancel ... everything ... ever.

Patronising as fuck.

But he couldn't eat a bacon sandwich you guise

I just checked the parliament site for petitions to check how significant the current one to revoke A50 is in terms of number of signatories.

Already it is the third largest historically (from the e-petition stats), and at the rate it's growing should surpass the second (which was a petition to veto Trump's visit).

The most signed petition was ahead of the referendum, attracted 4,150,262 signatures and stated:

"We the undersigned call upon HM Government to implement a rule that if the remain or leave vote is less than 60% based a turnout less than 75% there should be another referendum."

The government overrode it. Hence current shitshow prevails and doesn't bode well for the petition to be heeded.

Mormonism alive and well.

Def not me!

If there is any take-away from this entire shit show it’s that referendums are bullshit and direct democracy doesn’t work.

I should put that into a petition.

And also (especially for any A level Politics students reading - this is for Paper 1 as well) that attempted reforms to improve participation, such as e-petitions prompting Westminster Hall debates, are ineffective because they do not lead to any meaningful outcomes and the government does not have to listen to the result.

If only they could be that cavalier about advisory referendums.