EU referendum, brexit and the aftermath

Absolutely. Corbyn is an utterly useless party leader who has been promoted way beyond his abilities. He's done virtually nothing to oppose Brexit, failed to deal with antisemitism within his party and most unforgivably doesn't really seem bothered about getting elected PM and beating the Tories.

But yeah, let's vilify this bunch for the way they've chosen to express their absolutely justifiable frustration.

I always thought socialism was about supporting your comrades, not vilifying them if they don't share your viewpoint.

corbyn obliterated the tory majority in the last election.

you don't like him? fine - put up a contender, be the change you want to see and do it democratically. don't further weaken the party by flouncing because your niche interest isn't being handled to your satisfaction. It speaks to the privilege these people enjoy that it doesn't really matter whether or not there is a party in power that sees the protection of workers rights and providing for the most vulnerable as something to be avoided at all costs.

Obliterated? Wot. They won enough seats to fairly be described at first loser.

It’s only because we live in incredible times that he wasn’t sacked and he didn’t feel the need to resign.

Is the choice between "be a terrible person or support Corbyn"?

Absolutely not. Not sure anyone's even insinuated that.

Greenhell seems to suffer from the same perception problem as Corbyn and his supporters: second place in a general election is good enough.

I would love anyone who considers not voting to oust the tories to have to go through an AToS assessment and see if someone calling them a swear word made an atom of a difference to changing their mind on the number 1 priority being to vote the tories out.

the house is on fire and all people want to do is talk about the best way of picking through the ashes to salvage what's left when it's finally burned to the ground rather than try to put the fucking fire out first and then decide how to make it better.

corbyn obliterated the tory majority in the last election.

Really? I didn't see this. I'd suggest that to 'obliterate' someone in an election (or anything really), it's a pretty vital prerequisite that you at least beat them.

it's astounding he achieved what he did considering the open hostility directed at him by the supine, almost exclusively right wing press, of course winning is a priority - i'm pretty sure that's what the man is trying to do right now and that's what's got you all so salty. Denying the democratic result of the referendum by supporting remain given our electoral system is suicidal and then you'd have a real reason to get your noses bent out of shape.

sadly it seems the centrist dads are doing their utmost to see even that outcome is scuppered.

you don't like him? fine - put up a contender, be the change you want to see and do it democratically

I left the party quite a while ago because I don't believe that under Corbyn actually wants Labour to win. I don't think wanting the party to be electable is a niche interest.

A lot of people have tried to be the change they want to see already. Claire Kober tried that in Haringey, look how that ended (for anyone who doesn't know Momentum ousted her, then appointed their stooge as council leader, ignoring the votes of local party members).

this is the thing tho isn't it. i genuinely don't believe that the majority of people here have first hand experience of the sheer mendacity of the tory party in all it's glory. i suspect it's what affords them the privilege of navel gazing their way through what is a very real crisis time for millions of people in the worst situations imaginable.

I've never been a Tory voter but my experiences of the last ten years with family and friends being utterly shafted by them, has turned me from a not Tory to a never Tory.

Eh? It is possible people on here switched to The Greens or still vote Labour (hi FPTP) without much enthouasism, but still would agree the Tories are scumbags of the highest degree?

I have a "choice" between the DUP and SF, the 3rd party (the SDLP) is very far in the polls in North Belfast.

I think nearly everybody wants the same thing and thinks Tories are horrendous. It's just that not everybody agrees about the best way to achieve it.

I very strongly feel that the 'Umunna seven' shouldn't be vilified, but I'm not sure they're making the right choice and it's definitely deeply unhelpful now. Everyone is talking about this and Momentum today but nobody seems to be talking about Purple Momentum...

i mean, there are reasons to think umunna is a grade A dick for reasons that have nowt to do with his turbo-flounce.

Can you provide examples? I'm interested.

Kind of like how I'm always interested to hear @fox talk about Abbott.

On their site they describe Labour as 'hostile to businesses large and small'. This is puerile, Daily Mail standard tosh and enough on its own to make you realise what sort of a party they would form.

i alluded to this incident up-thread. "man of the people" indeed.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-mp-chuka-umunna-apologises-for-comments-on-elite-social-network-saying-londons-nightclubs-are-8561809.html

warning: contains an explanation of the term "jetrosexuals", which presumably is what your boi thinks he is. probably.

This is a quite significant misrepresentation of what happened in Haringey, where Claire Kober managed to unite almost everyone in politics in Haringey against a hugely unpopular development scheme which would have come at great detriment to local people.

Momentum - which also consisted of 'local party members', in some cases members of 20-30 years - got their candidates elected instead.

The "change they wanted to see" was property developer-led selling off of public land, and ordinary people didn't like it. See also: Lewisham Council and the Millwall proposal, Southwark Council and the homes in Elephant and Castle, Robin Wales in Newham.

Yeah, not great. At least it was 13 years ago though.

well based upon his most recent shenanigans, you'd be forgiven for thinking little has changed.

I assumed that there we no more recent shenanigans, on the basis that the first thing you drew to my attention was from so long ago. I'll do some reading.

Is the statute of limitations on snobbery shorter than on wearing black face?

sorry, i was referring specifically to his flouncing out of labour to go full fat centrist dad.

people have pulled corbyn up on shit he did far longer ago.

I actually think it is possible for people to change and that sometimes it's an overreaction to hold people to what they were like when they were much younger. But, he has always struck me as a chancer and opportunist.