That Corbyn fella...

https://twitter.com/darren_dutton/status/1085946105735643136?s=21

Washing machines don’t bring their families. Cost 1k a week in benefits and refuse to work or integrate.

Leave my washing machine alone.

#askastupidquestion

Everyone knows restricting migration damages our economy overall. Quite a lot of people think it might be a good idea in order to maintain some kind of cultural cohesion in their community and some stability in their personal economics. This is what they feel, even though evidence attributing immigrantion as a cause of these problems is often really weak.

This is a political reality entirely ignored by mainstream politics until the EU referendum.

Perhaps Corbyn should have been honest all along and put with the socialist case for leaving the EU.

Sorry, I've just re-read that article and it is a lot more accelerationist than I remembered it being. I agree that framing FOM exclusively on a left/right-wing basis is foolish, but the moral case for FOM should be clear: all people are of equal worth, but people are economically and socially disadvantaged because of where they are born. It is jarring that Labour is a party that has a problem with immigration.

But not everyone is of equal value

The reality is a bit more complex. According to the studies, EU migrants improve the economy overall, non-EU migrants have a negative impact overall.

Breaking down the EU immigrants, unsurprisingly the higher paid ones have a positive impact on the economy whereas lower paid are approximately neutral.

Obviously the issue is that it's difficult to restrict to just higher paid immigrants and still get people wanting to come.

The curious thing is that those who are most anti-immigration tend to be those who live in areas of low immigration (but without a suggestion that they have intentionally moved there).

you can't say the S word out loud.

^ ^ I agree.

I just thought it was worth mentioning the general political environment (outside our bubble).

I am always a bit baffled by this "cultural cohesion".

Want want to all know our neighbours and the whole street? Yes, you can... one Belfast street near where I used to live in a rundown part of the city was kept together by 3 grannies who were super happy with having 8 nationalities and everybody watched each other.

With 8 nationalities. In a mostly white area, which is now getting a lot of people from the Carribean. And one that has serious racism problems 10 years ago and turned it around. And it's pretty poor with housing issues. But, the local community group who fights their heart out for GPs/housing decided it had enough and that is now what the area is.

Those feelings also live in the Netherlands, but there are places where people have reached out and it turns out "the others" are just...people.

You are right it is about feelings, but I don't find the whole anti immigration discussion in the UK very productive. It is more about stoking more unhelpful feelings.

And one man a few years ago voted Brexit, but he reached out to the EU citizens in the town. He just didn't want "any more" as "it is now all Polish people". So, to me, it seemed the "local born" go and never come back.

I don't see how locking the door is going to fix that. Though I can understand it must be strange to see a city change that much, so having conversations is fine. But what is the anti freedom of movement bringing to the table? To use an extreme example, maybe the town will just be empty and nobody will come once "the door is shut". Do they take that into account? The discussion seems just stuck on a political level.

It is jarring that Labour is a party that has a problem with immigration.

Do they? (Genuine question)

Also I think your moral case is less clear cut than you think and based on a number of presuppositions - such as the importance of that disadvantage; An Austrian banker is disadvantaged by the very limited local employment opportunities compared to London due to their place of birth - to what extent should we give a fuck about that inequality?
or - the resolution to that inequity; why is relocation of the able motivated individual to a more wealthy country the acceptable solution? Or is the logic that if you flood wealthy countries with poor people from outside they will resolve the disparity?

Personally I am very pro-immigration. But that has probably been hugely shaped by any numbers of life factors such as being descended from immigrants on one side, growing up in London, exposure to foreigners through friends/family/studies, and no doubt random superficial things like semi-consciously thinking mixed societies end up with more attractive people.

If you haven't read, it 21 Lessons for the 21st Century by Yuval Noah Harari has a chapter on immigration/migration.

He breaks down three conditions / terms which effectively govern the social contract with immigrants, which then feeds into the debate. It's worth reading as an interesting way to unpack the different view points.

Some people haven’t adapted to current employment conditions. Insecure employment/hours/income, relocation and new skills/training. Housing makes things worse (social housing completely locks you down geographically and private rent is half your paycheque).

I can see how they find themselves resentful of economic migrants and intolerant of refugees.

If I ask how they feel about immigration they say “too much”.

^ It’s glib, but this is my basic understanding of what I see. I work sometimes with a charity and we try and get people like this into volunteering etc.

I can see that too, but you blame the wrong cause/person and then you will never get anywhere. It suits some in the political class atm to play along with this of course.

It is too bad in a way, cos nobody is happy with the bad housing, including immigrants but the problems are pitted as "one vs other" not "people that want a decent standard vs politicians/processes that mess it up".

https://www.economist.com/open-future/2018/08/06/anti-immigration-like-pro-immigration-is-a-legitimate-political-position nice summary here.

Yes it is of course more complex, but the quality of the debate combined with a total lack of data annoys me greatly. Raising issues is fine, you see the EU nationals in the UK and UK nationals in the EU forming charities now that rights are threatened.

They point it out from their POV (I can't vote anymore now...this settled status is not great for me) others point it out from their POV, ok, with a good moderator and data we can all try to work something out.

Poland BTW is letting in people from the Phillipines cos they are Catholic. You could say this is for integration, but since the party in power atm is in bed with the Catholic Church, perhaps it rather is about control...

I can see that too, but you blame the wrong cause/person and then you will never get anywhere.

Sure. But the prospect of The City taking a financial hit ... or relatively difficult retirement to Spain are not arguments for Remain that resonated with these people. Perhaps if there was more demand for unskilled labour their lives would be better? There is evidence that some sectors suffered wage depression.

They just voted Leave for their self interest, just as we did when we voted to Remain.

https://electronicintifada.net/content/fake-labour-accounts-fueling-anti-semitism-crisis/26441

tbf, that url did have me wondering as well, but they get the all clear on

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/electronic-intifada/

which is far more than can be said for our chums over at

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/daily-mail/

Unskilled labour, what is it? Currently it is earning at least 30K per the government immigration system. Unless you are working for the NHS/certain sectors. So, a plumber, nope, unskilled. Teachers? Keep trying.

It is a term what is bandied around with nobody knowing what it means. If BoJo would go to people working 0 hour contracts/teachers calling them "unskilled labourers" I wonder how that would go down... ;)

Another problem is that you can't go back. The theory that if the UK would just shut the door wages will go up again does not follow. Companies can also go broke/pack up.

So, yes, self-interest is a good driver. Can't blame people for that. I thought maybe Brexit would be bad for me, but good for NI/the whole of the UK so maybe I should suck it up. Winners and losers. Unfortunately I am not convinced and see just mostly losers.

So what is the good sell then to stay in? Since the UK problems are 99% of the UKs making I am not sure. Bar that for the floods problems in the UK Cameron could have asked the EU for funds! Yep, the EU comes and helps...if you ask. Maybe something can be done for neighbourhoods too...but you have to ask for it.

So what is the good sell then to stay in?

Something emotive, not grounded in any reality.

Listening to interviews with people from Sunderland the other day - a place which has had large direct and indirect benefits from EU membership - you realise that there is no reasoning with these people.

This idea that leavers voted in their own self interest is, to use JRM's phrase, for the birds.

So what is the good sell then to stay in

Forcing change in Europe?

They do not make stuff up but are strongly biased according to that assessment. Better than the DM but not sure I would call that all clear.

For me, yes, but if people don't accept any data but come up with vague statements then very concrete examples of "hey this area got some EU help and funding and look, life is now better".

It depends a bit on the needs, because cheap uni fees in The Netherlands won't help in areas where nobody travels, ever. Whereas EU uni fees are a big thing in Northern Ireland where people go down south to study.

The EU needs to fix some things badly (it always does!) and Labour could play a positive role. And the UK has had many of its ideas accepted, the developing regions funds is a UK idea. I'd very much rather see the UK stay with a Labour government.

Years of emotive propaganda of the gutter press against EU immigrants and the EU is not so easy to undo. Sometimes self-interest is vague emotional stuff too, like "independency" and "sovereignity" yeah it means zilch when you unpick it, but people feel happy enough to tick LEAVE and this happiness bit, along with confirming an anti-EU British identity and all the happy identity politics that brings, it enough.

I wonder what would make them feel good. That the UK got nearly all its EU proposals passed? That other EU really rather see the UK stay? That the EU has really seriously helped some areas? There are EU flags everywhere on buses in Belfast, well, how much of the EU pots for developing regions are left unasked for in England?

I don’t really follow tbh.

Maybe quote what you’re responding to.

huge if true.

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/uri-geller-to-use-telepathic-powers-to-stop-jeremy-corbyn-becoming-prime-minister-1.479364