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This is quite an interesting thread that is (partially) related to some of your comments
https://twitter.com/DeborahMeaden/status/1025480585572233218
(The bits by QuantumChoices)
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Ha, never implied anyone was lazy or unwilling.
Agree with most of your sentiments.
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Whoa, cool post :)
@freddo I feel like you're finally talking sense on here, earlier I must admit it felt a bit condescending and antagonistic...
I am generally condescending and antagonistic. Thanks for noticing! :p
...the way you came across was the same as the people you were/are arguing/discussing with. ie, you view some on here as very blinkered and unwilling to discuss the "real" motivation for voting brexit by leavers but at the same time your view of those people is the same! However I will concede that now you're actually opening up, you are practicing what you preach.
I'm not sure. I was motivated to respond to several pages of "all brexit voters are racist tory gammon cunts". My point throughout is that most Brexit voters, particularly the "type 4 group" are not really racist at all, and Remainers who won't debate are just as much a part of the problem.
That out of the way, I 100% agree with you about the lower class leavers voting that way as a result of the effects of un-checked globalisation...lack of funding in general but specifically youth services and education
yepI know I keep saying this but this is about what we do next, not how we undo the causes. That chance was missed.
And (contentious post alert): most people are more-or-less rational agents. Irrationality comes in to play in extreme situations, such as when we feel we are threatened. A <2% majority in the referendum has left Leavers feeling weak and vulnerable. For Remainers, who for obvious reasons feel threatened by Leavers' actions (ie. voting for brexit, jingoism, murder etc), the temptation is to also react irrationally (hence "racist tory gammon cunts"). If half of the country is attacking the other half, we will never get to a sensible resolution of the country's problems. IMO many Leavers and Remainers actually feel the same about austerity, lack of education, skills, etc. If we can propose a way to fix that first and on a nonpartisan basis, Brexit can be cancelled. If we keep calling these people thick racist Tory cunts we're all fucked.
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|³|MA3K
freddo
@NurseHolliday
@freddo I feel like you're finally talking sense on here, earlier I must admit it felt a bit condescending and antagonistic, not to be rude to you, but I think my feelings are backed up by your post about your qualifications. I accept that your education provides you a potential greater insight, but honestly the way you came across was the same as the people you were/are arguing/discussing with. ie, you view some on here as very blinkered and unwilling to discuss the "real" motivation for voting brexit by leavers, but at the same time your view of those people is the same! However I will concede that now you're actually opening up, you are practicing what you preach.
That out of the way, I 100% agree with you about the lower class leavers voting that way as a result of the effects of un-checked globalisation. It is my opinion that the majority of leavers are not racist, but they do fear immigrants because that's what they've been told is the reason for their predicament! Since the shrinking and basic collapse of the working class industries, we have been fed the lies that the reason there are no jobs is because of the immigrants, however these are just lies. There are just layers upon layers upon layers of cause and effect, which have all just added together to create this environment. This has been rammed down the throats of the public, incessantly by right wing popular media and publications, until we are now in a situation where it is believed even in the face of evidence to the contrary.
In my personal opinion, one of the biggest factors, not just here, but worldwide, are the complete complicity by successive governments in prioritising private company revenue and profits over people. The whole concept of reducing costs, outsourcing, zero hour contracts, etc etc, at the same time as shoving consumerism down people's throats has forced the value to be put on getting everything done as cheaply as possible, and fuck the consequences. At the same time, the knock on effects on our workforce have not been considered, businesses work outside the confines of borders, but they effect populations. You should not be able to close a factory and open another somewhere elsewhere without acknowledging that your actions are causing an effect. Either elected officials of countries affected should be limiting the exposure through sanctions or restrictions in these practices, or they should be coming up with strategies to mitigate the effects. Decades of this have, in my opinion, left us in this state.
On top of that, in more recent years, PFI, the slow privatisation of our services, the incredible fees charged by the big 4 consultancies, have, in this country caused a complete degradation of our public services. There is a fuck tonne of cash being wasted, there's so much money being spent, but not reaching the right people.
Add to that things like:
So how does you change leavers' views on brexit? I think we're beyond that, but a good start would be firstly stopping austerity, and explaining why spending is not a bad thing, it's a good thing, resuming spending on needed services but at the same time starting the incredibly long process of un-doing privatisation. Next, open discussions on how you're going to provide jobs outside London that aren't zero hour contracts, and are suitable for the available workforce.
@|³|MA3K
You can't expect people to just re-train, you have to support them, brandishing people as lazy or un-willing just because you moved across the world for work, in the face of whatever, or how ever many challenges, doesn't mean "anyone can do it".
However, I believe we're in a situation that even if every single elected official and every single newspaper and news source told the exact situation, how the country has been fucked, and all the lies they've pushed and supported, some would still choose to not believe and look to the fringes for people who stick to the false narrative that's been built over the years. It'd be a good start though.