Deliveroo

While we're at it let's scrap council housing, the NHS and state education right? In fact let's get children back down the mines... Or you know maybe we could aim to support workers rights and improve pay and conditions?

Deliveroo et al are not just a tech company, they're a service company and just because their business model necessitates riders/drivers are self employed it doesn't mean that it's actually legal or a valid business model.

also popcorn.gif because someone much more intelligent and eloquent than me will come forth in short order I suspect

They are a service company in that they provide a (minimal) service to self employed delivery riders. If you work as a Deliveroo employee you get standard employment rights.

While we're at it let's scrap council housing, the NHS and state education right? In fact let's get children back down the mines... Or you know maybe we could aim to support workers rights and improve pay and conditions?

Ok rantypants. Have you worked through Deliveroo? Did you feel unduly ‘exploited’?

You realise the primary way to improve conditions is just to run the business the best it can be?

Hah rantypants, this from the person who ended their post with "Can Marxists and their lawyers please just fuck off?"

No I've not worked for them, I aware that you have and if you're happy with the treatment that's great but realise that there a significant proportion of workers who are not and are seeking to challenge the business model on a legal basis. It is neither for you or I to say what will be decided though we're both entitled to our own views on the subject however at odds they may be.

I don't realise and vehemently disagree that the primary way to improve conditions is just run the business the best it can be. That sounds like words straight from the mouth of a free market capitalist (not strictly intended to be a slur), and utterly naive. In terms of business model it exists to create money, not jobs, not deliver people their take away meal, and it will seek to do that as efficiently as possible which is inherently at odds with providing people good working conditions.

I don't realise and vehemently disagree that the primary way ...

I hope laws adapt and that exploitation doesn't hurt those most vulnerable ... but I will call-out ideologues who have made attacking the gig economy a cause and their livelihood.

but realise that there a significant proportion of workers who are not.

I'd love to know what percentage of regular workers through the Deliveroo app are unhappy. I wonder which of us would be surprised. Pareto's principle comes to mind.

Hah rantypants, this from the person who ended their post with "Can Marxists and their lawyers please just fuck off?"

Too verbose? Ok, just 'fuck off'. It does the same ;-)

Wanting holidays, sick pay and minimum wage is not "Marxist"? It's you know, normal stuff that the government has decided is the bare minimum that any job should include.

I agree... in some sense... that there are people who treat Deliveroo like regular employment when that's not what it is. If you want regular hours you need a proper job, not this. And insurance for loss of earnings is a nice step on Deliveroo's part. Would we have got it without these union people? No.

@miro_o I've worked for multiple food delivery and other courier companies (including one food app which decided when it didn't get extra funding to file bankruptcy leaving me and many people i know with hundreds/thousands of un-payed wages) so I definitely understand the situation.

I understand why for for some/many the flexibility of deliveoo is the something they cherish and are worried that'll they'll lose it with IWGB taking workers rights to tribunal.

The IWGB is not trying to take this away from you, they're fighting for Worker status, not full employment. This is factually what deliveroo riders are, no matter what you prefer.
https://www.gov.uk/employment-status/worker

Worker status means you'll be entitled to minimum wage and accrued holiday pay while you're signed in and protection from discrimination /the ability for collective bargain. It's not forcing you to become fully employed and have set hours.
While these may not matter to you, this will make a huge difference to those who are the poorest workers.

Actually the biggest thing for me is job security. Someone up here got sacked (by Deliveroo) based on a single complaint from a restaurant. You have no right to a notice period, no ability to appeal to Deliveroo (why would they allow it? They've got plenty of riders), no ability to sue for unfair dismissal, no need to give you warning. Just sudden complete loss of earnings.

Sorry to hear about the unpaid earnings. That's always very sad. And thanks for explaining the IWGB's goals: their page doesn't (instead it uses emotive language to shame Deliveroo for asking people to do 'banal' work, outside, in weather).

I am wary of unintended consequences. Campaigners can mean well and still ruin hard-working people's income or send this business under.

This is factually what deliveroo riders are, no matter what you prefer.

So there has been a ruling on this? We are casual workers no?

But likewise you can walk away at any minute.

It's not a job.

Wanting holidays, sick pay and minimum wage is not "Marxist"

No. But they are Marxists, given voice by a Marxist, making all the classic Marxist blunders. Spot a pattern.

All I would like is:

a) ability to go on holiday without wrecking your stats. Holiday pay would be great but I'm fine with a system where you just work more in the run up and take the loss of earnings.
b) minimum pay when it's quiet. There is no downside (for Deliveroo) to overstuffing booking slots and having riders sitting around earning £0/hr - in fact it's better for them to have loads of riders waiting around to reduce waiting times for customers. Just pay us a token £5-8/hr or something and I'll be fine with it.
c) some sort of reassurance about when and how we can be sacked. And it would be nice if they sided with riders over restaurants in a he-said-she-said scenario rather than just sacking us straight off the bat.

I don't think that's too much to ask. Everything else is fine. The shift system is great for me how it is.

Seems fair enough and probably typical.

Can I say how I see it?

a) Stats don't matter. Go on your holiday.
b) There is a downside for Deliveroo: riders will not ride for them and will do something else instead.
c) You can't be sacked. You're just not a chosen provider any longer. Go and work through another app (or for a restaurant) that better manages this sort of thing #freemarket

All jobs at the bottom are shit. I am WAYWAYWAYWAYWAY more concerned with non-englishspeaking cleaners being bussed around and truly grossly exploited by 'agencies'. Kitchen/waiting staff in Indian restaurants (and living upstairs) and workers in the sex trade. There are genuine employment crimes commonplace but they don't have pull on gofundme, crowdjustice etc.

In my opinion a business which couldn't survive following their legal protections for worker rights shouldn't survive. We wouldn't accept this in any other industry, and delivery should be the same. Making sure people get minimum wage isn't so much to ask is it?
While you luckily have the ability to walk away if you decide the terms aren't to your liking, many unfortunately don't.

Ha, factual is probably wrong word when it comes to legal concerns, I'll take that back. Everything explain worker status seems like a tick list for deliveroo riders, but I could be biased.

You are currently classed as a self-employed contractor with no rights, the original tribunal was lost after deliveroo changed contracts to allow riders to substitute another rider to do your delivery for you (are you told this, is it possible in practice? genuinely interested)
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/nov/14/deliveroo-couriers-minimum-wage-holiday-pay

All jobs at the bottom are shit. I am WAYWAYWAYWAYWAY more concerned with non-englishspeaking cleaners being bussed around and truly exploited by 'agencies'. There are genuine employment crimes commonplace but they don't get have pull on gofundme, crowdjustice etc.

Most of the people at least in london 'working' for deliveroo are immigrants with not many employment options.

The IWGB also fights for cleaners, security guards, foster carers and private hire driver.
https://iwgb.org.uk/how-we-began/

are you told this, is it possible in practice? genuinely interested

Yes and yes.

Making sure people get minimum wage isn't so much to ask is it?

Yes.

I am paid a piece rate. This lets me earn upwards of £20 phr on occasion.

I don't want that rate cut to pay for people to sit on a bench at 4pm. Neither do Deliveroo because they know they'll lose their most productive riders.

I don't want you to sink the business because it's 'the right thing to do' according to your ideology.

Other individuals will feel differently.

The IWGB also fights for ...

I know, they do fight for many causes I would support.

There is no reason not to have a per delivery pay, while having the protection of a basic minimum wage, and if Deliveroo changed to Worker status they would be silly to not incentivise riders to continue to work as hard as possible.

The courier company i work for currently gives me a guarantee which equates to minimum wage, but I obviously work as hard as possible to make more than that, it's a system that does work in practice.

I don't want that rate cut to pay for people to sit on a bench at 4pm. Neither do Deliveroo because they know they'll lose their most productive riders.

i.e. I am paid well so I don't care about everyone else in the rest of the country

I think Deliveroo may differ in that it has relatively extreme rushes (times of day and days of week).

They could manage a fill-in fee for surprisingly slow periods and I wouldn't be against that. Sadly that would be money of the pocket of those who work the periods of heavy demand.

I am paid well

Ha! I work hard in a dangerous/physical job for not much more than minimum wage for a proper employer cheers. This does not make me feel you bench sitters deserve minimum wage :-D

Quite right, they deserve a living wage.

The implication being that I don't work hard and that I am a "bench sitter"? You can sod off with the attitude thanks.

I am happy with how much I earn (averages about £10/hr), but I'm also not wilfully blinkered, so I understand that not all zones are the same as mine.

My proper employer is not Deliveroo. My proper employer has actual demands of me. In exchange I get Ni paid, a pension and holiday pay.