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I doubt anyone can put an argument forward saying they have the same consequences. So I'll leave that point.

But from my understanding yes.

Male circumcision is a practical way of ensuring male hygiene, and reducing disease when you're wandering about in the desert with sporadic access to water in a pre-condom world. I'm not up on Jewish hygiene practices, but for Islam cleanliness is a fundamental part of life.

When constructing a philosophy for you and your community to live your lives by, including cleanliness is pretty reasonable. Who here likes sitting next to smelly people on a bus? Or thinks cooks should wash their hands?

Preventing girls/women from sexual pleasure because "you know what they'll get like if we don't" is fundamentally different. It's about control, and deep cultural misogyny. Even before you get to the process.

The parents, it's aimed at the parents.

Male circumcision is a practical way of ensuring male hygiene, and reducing disease when you're wandering about in the desert with sporadic access to water in a pre-condom world. I'm not up on Jewish hygiene practices, but for Islam cleanliness is a fundamental part of life.

When constructing a philosophy for you and your community to live your lives by, including cleanliness is pretty reasonable. Who here likes sitting next to smelly people on a bus? Or thinks cooks should wash their hands?

Even the most cursory google debunks the hygiene argument in about 4 seconds

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_male_circumcision

Er wat (from the wiki link)

One of the leading advocates of circumcision was John Harvey Kellogg. He advocated the consumption of Kellogg's corn flakes to prevent masturbation, and he believed that circumcision would be an effective way to eliminate masturbation in males.

Pretty sure if you read more than 4 seconds worth of that article you would see that hygiene is among the various reasons.

Weird... the Kellogg / masturbating thing came up in a conversation I had recently.

He devised Kellogg’s to be as bland / un stimulating as possible. And is probably pro circumcision because of its effect on sensitivity.

Kellogg

Do some more reading on him.

Definitely a character.

This circumsion chat always makes me think of Cassidy from preacher..

Circumcision is a load of old bollocks.

#bringbackrep

One is more abhorrent than the other, however it is still unneeded surgery on a child due to belief in fairy stories.

Out of interest / as a thought experiment, would your view change in the following scenario?

• it was a policy decision carried out safely at childbirth in hospitals in developing countries where there is a high incidence of STIs;
  
• the policy was based on additional data supporting the correlation between circumcision and lower transmission of STIs?
  
  

Sort of thinking about similarities/contrasts with the anti-vac arguments, and at what levels people are happy to remove individual freedoms to benefit society as a whole.

View would completely change, as the decision to carry out the procedure is based on science, data and facts. Not because some deity is going to look unfavourably on you.

There are occasional happy coincidences in religion, however, the thought behind them still needs to be called out upon due to all the other shite they bring up.

I agree in principle that mutilating a baby's body for whatever reason is unacceptable, and perfectly understand people's arguments about denying choice by imposing this at a very young age. Especially since I have no-religious belief at all.

However, I do come from a culturally Jewish background. Some close members of my family are orthodox Jews. I can also completely see their view that circumcising a son is a core fundamental practice, rational or not, hygienic or not. An uncircumcised Jewish boy is anathema and extremely problematic.

Also, what about surgery for aesthetical reasons on minors.
My daughter is having an operation on her ear for aesthetic reasons, due to a condition.

Again I would say that you are doing this based on data\understanding of people, that doing the procedure will help your daughter, then this is a good thing in that you've thought about it and weighed up the options. If the decision to do it (or not do it) because it would limit her chances of getting into valhalla, then you would be......foolish.

So widely held cultural beliefs?

Didn't we do all this in the mums and dads thread the other day?

Oh I must read that as I’m 75% sure should go ahead

It's an interesting eg. But to some extent it sounds like you put a lot more weight on the divine bit rather than the cultural. Probably due to my interactions I do the reverse.

@skydancer - you are a better person to ask this of, but in the eg you gave how much actual thought do you think any of your practising Jewish relatives (orthodox or not) would think about the religious necessity? Rather than just "it's what you do".

@GoatandTricycle

So widely held cultural beliefs?

I'd say yes.

You understand that physical appearance is important in our culture, so it sounds like you are taking what to many would see as a reasonable step to reduce hurdles, and help your daughter integrate into society as it stands.

Would you do the same if society held a belief that everyone is born as God intended, and physical differences were revered? Probably not.

It does make you uncomfortable how people force kin to be circumcised.

An uncircumcised Jewish boy is anathema and extremely problematic.

Forgive me, but in what way is a Jewish (or any other faith) infant / boy an anathema and extremely problematic.
In what way is any infant problematic? (Other than the pee, poo and noise)

"it's what you do".

It's a mixture. My orthodox family likely think "it's (just) how you live" . Partially because God says, and partially because it defines us as a people

every year, kids in SA die from septicaemia or have their junk amputated following botched circumcisions performed by unqualified men with stone knives. immediately after being circumcised, teenage lads are expected to fend for themselves in the bush for up to six weeks or more to prove they are men. cultural purism can fuck off.

In what way is any infant problematic?

From their perspective, problematic because missing a fundamental element of their faith and culture