Wheelbuilding / Wheel Building / Wheel build help

Any silliness would be mine, thought I did that but since you remind me, I think I didn't do it properly. I only grabbed and squeezed 2 crossing spokes, instead of 2 adjacent sets of spokes. And I didn't deliberately bend the spokes where they exit the flange.

I did bend the spokes where they crossed and did the "over and reverse" when turning nipples to reduce spokes twisting.

So should I stress relieve now or lower the tension first?

Stress (relief) the wheel now, then true it

Got it thanks

Then stress relief again, true again etc etc until it stays true. I find the spoke grabbing doesn't always work 100%, but laying the wheel on the floor (resting on the axle ends) and putting some weight on the rim does. Work your way around the rim, flip it over and do the other side, then back in the truing stand to check.

Cheers, will do.

Does the wooden ride has something to do with this too?

The tyre is 23mm

wooden ride

Has nothing to do with your spokes, get wider tyres and have less pressure in them.

But it is compared to durano pluses at similar pressure, even a commercial built 20h wheel feels more lively...
So the wheel is trued with tyre inflated, by only loosening and held over a few miles. Now I wonder if the tensions are too low

How would you define lively?

Having a bit of spring, gives you feedback with the rough edges smoothed a bit? Like what people like the steel bike for. As opposed to feeling like the suspension has bottomed out

Tubeless gyres cause a big tension drop and any tension variance may get magnified.

You must set front tension with tubeless tyres at 1000 to 1100n. Get the tension every even with a maximum variance of 50n. Threadlocker or self locking nipples help. That way fitting a tubeless tyre should not cause the wheel to budge.

The tension drop with tubeless tyres is around 200n.

The tension drop with tubeless tyres is around 200n

Have you measure the tension drop with butyl or latex tubes? I'm struggling to see a mechanism whereby tubeless would cause significantly more compression of the rim than tubed.

The tyre is tubeless but i have fitted innertube for the time being, so it may have different effect. It is also sits noticeably less symmetrically that it wobbles sideways relative to the rim itself, this may explain the irregular change to the wheel's shape

Only very tangentially related. I've got a set of Stans ZTR340s in 20/24 hanging about, and was thinking about building a super-light fixed wheelset using either Novatec or Ridea hubs. Assuming I use a half-decent spoke like a Sapim D-Light, and go 2-cross at the rear, does this sound viable or stupid? 80kg rider, no skids ('cos I don't know how yet, and tubeless tyres are expensive anyway), street use only.

I should add that I've done about 4,000km on these rims built up for a road bike, so I know they'll hold up under me, it's whether there's something about hub torque from fixed braking that I don't understand. I wouldn't build a 24h disc-braked wheel, but that's instinct not science and my legs can't stop like discs in any case.

[The tangential point is that ZTR340s are hopelessly prone to deformation after tyre fitment, to the point that I would end up retruing and retensioning them with the tyre fitted. Pacenti SL23s, for example, are 100g heavier and don't have this problem.]

there's something about hub torque from fixed braking that I don't understand

If you don't hop, the reverse torque you can apply is significantly less than your forward starting torque. 24H is plenty as far as the hub is concerned, the limit will be the rim. If your rims are OK as a road build, they will be even safer as a fixed build.

I dont understand it fully either but with normal clinchers and tubes the drop is less but these tyres are not as tight on the rims.

Also some rims show bigger drops with tubeless tyres. One dayi will get a colection of wheels and tyres and document this.

Thats what i have found with tubeless tyres and tubes, they never sit right which is why i tell folk dont put a tube in the hints in the name tubeless.

I ride that i am that weight a bit more really. Got a setof 340's formy road bike never used them as i am waiting for a set of pacentis in the same low spoke count to wear out or crack first.

I know it's just a short term thing, at least it helps breaking in a bit faster

@cycleclinic I'm looking at buying a Kinlin XR22t from you (that I'm planning to build into a wide-ish tubeless-ready fixed rear, to be used with RALTech disc covers), but have spotted your all black Borg22 XR22 RTS OCR rim. The wheel will never see a brake, so for me the black/non machined braking surface is desirable. However, I don't know what 'RTS' and 'OCR' mean. Presumably they refer to offset drilling or being asymmetric... Please could you explain?

Ideally, I'd like an all black/non-machined, symmetric version of the XR22t. Do you have such a rim available?
Many thanks,
Lukas

Disc asymmetric rims. The name is not that catchy is it.

Haha, thanks.
Sounds like I'll be better off with the regular XR22T. Thanks for the help!

Need some advice - bought a set of these a month ago, rode them a couple of times on short rides and they've been fine. However, the other day I realised that the dishing on the rear wheel was about 6-7mm over to the non drive side so looked at them properly. According to my TM-1, the drive side tension was about 130 (?), but non drive side was too low to be recorded, yet they were still massively non-dished. By backing off the NDS tension a bit, I was able to centre the rim, which brought the drive side down to around 100 (13 or so on the TM-1). Having done this, I thought I'd better just get them checked at the LBS, just to be sure the non drive side wasn't too low. They called me a couple of hours later to say that the rim was fucked because the drive side was pulling through the rim at a couple of places. Thankfully, the seller has refunded half of what I paid and so I'm not massively out of pocket as the front is absolutely fine.

I have a couple of questions though - why did the drive side need to be so high tension that it started to pull through the rim? They're rebadged Reynolds assault rims AFAIK, so quality should be good. Is it that the NDS spokes are too long?
How loose is 'too loose' for the NDS? They're not floppy but definitely not as tense as any round spoke builds I've done (which have held up), but I've never built with CX Ray so don't know how much flex is to be expected.
And finally, is this 'potential catastrophic failure' territory, or can I keep riding the wheel on the flat? I'm not going to take it down any 50mph descents, obviously, but would it be ok for flat rides? Is it a case of the LBS being over cautious and just something I should just keep an eye on?
I've attached a picture of the worst eyelet, where it does look like the clear coat has lifted. In the shop, the mechanic showed me slight bulging around a couple of the eyelets but you could only see it at certain angles and there's nothing I'd call a crack (what looks like a crack there is just detritus that I've since rubbed off). I can't actually find a bulge again since backing off the drive side tension a bit. Had I not had it pointed out to me, I honestly don't think I'd have noticed the issue, but I can't ignore it now I know.

It isn't what you want to hear, but if it was me, I wouldn't ride that wheel full stop. Even if the spokes weren't pulling through, with the tensions that out of whack, you're likely to start fatiguing and snapping the spokes in no time.

Were you using the bladed spoke conversion table for the TM-1? 2 x 0.9 mm?

The spokes are evenly tensioned on each side, there's just a huge disparity between drive side and non drive. I've been scratching my head trying to work out how it's happened as they're factory built. I just can't get my head round why it's so difficult to get it dished.