1947 Hobbs of Barbican Superbe build

A few months ago I bought a 1947 Hobbs of Barbican Superbe on ebay to build up with age appropriate parts. It seems to have some good original parts on it already (Reynolds R5 seat post, Brooks B17 saddle, Hiduminium brake calipers and levers and a Lytaloy headset.

Some of the other parts are more suspect. The rims are Weinmann Alesa I think, the front hub is Atom and the rear Sturmey Archer AW is dated 1949 (although the frame has a derailleur shifter braze-on boss fitted). The rear wheel is also wrapped and soldered which is the sign of a quality wheel. The Crankset is unmarked, as are the stem and the handlebars, although these look very old. The pedals are Phillips Credalux quills and the BB axle is drilled but the cups don't have any markings on.

A Hobbs document that @7ven posted recently details the spec for a Superbe of this era and some items match, however others appear to be much cheaper specced items. As @7ven's document states how difficult supplies were in 1947, I've been wondering if some of the items I was going to replace might actually be original and fitted purely due to the shortages at the time. The ones I'm think about are the stem and handlebars, the pedals (and possibly the crankset) and the rear wheel.

I would be interested in peoples thoughts. I've included some pictures.

Thanks.

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Well, difficult one. The brooks saddle is definitely later as it has the later 50's style onwards parallelogram badge, but as for the rest hard to tell. I think Baylis Wiley made a single piece crankset like that, so might be worth looking for markings. The stem looks a bit like a Titan type one so could be period or could just be a later cheap steel one, same for the bars I guess

I guess just go with what 'feels' right and change the rest. As for the sturmey, if it's a '49 marked I suppose the frame could have been bought off the peg or have been old shop stock and the hub is the actual year it was bought and built up. I don't know if Hobbs did off the peg frames like some other larger lightweight builders apparently did. (i.e. Carlton, Claud Butler etc)...

Thanks @jeff80 the info on the saddle is really useful to know. I believe that Hobbs supplied both fully speced bikes and frame only. I suppose I'll just never really know what the original spec was as the bike is so old and has probably had lots of owners.

At the moment my instinct is to replace the crankset, stem, handlebars and both wheels. I was planning to fit a derailleur anyway seeing as the frame has a boss fitted (I've already obtained a Simplex shifter from Hilary Stone, although the screw doesn't actually fit the boss unfortunately).

I suppose that someone may have simply built it up out of old parts to look original in order to get a better price...

could be I guess. That's a nice rear wheel. Those sturmey wing nuts alone are worth a good £30 minimum on ebay....

Nice ride you got there. I think the pedals & stem look lovely. Cranks & bars are cool enough. Buying a complete bike is bound to have flies in the ointment, right?

Maybe tie that saddle and fit bartape that fits the look, if you want to make it feel a bit righter quickly.

Have fun and get riding, see which bits are fine as they are. The lighting looks nice, doubt it would match a modern dyno rig though. You could go modern in secret and see if you can switch the light innards. I'm sure I'd use a vaguely trad shaped modern brake block, why suffer for vintage?

There are a few early post war Hobbs on here, so interesting to make comparisons with them. I have a '46 Raceweight, and that looks very pre war in appearance, with the big drop handlebars.
I'm not sure how much of mine is original either!

Thanks for all your comments guys. It's really helpful to get insights from other people. I guess bikes like these are rarely truly original, just a snapshot in time.

I've been out riding on her and she rides really well. I'm planning to ride Eroica on her in June, perhaps just fitting cotton bar tape to improve the look like you suggest @Skülly. The lights still work, although the bulb fitting in the rear lamp has something missing. I wouldn't rely on them though as the light is more amber than white!

That's a beautiful bike @Quiet_Mike, I'm jealous of your original paintwork. There doesn't seem to be any of the original left on mine, although I will try to strip off the layers of paint just in case. My bike seems to have been for export as it has the lamp fitting on the left fork rather than the right. The lamp fitting itself is Chater Lea.

By the way, does anyone know how to date Weinmann Alesa rims?

I only discovered recently Weinmann rims were available in the UK from the late 40's.

This is from the Holdsworth catalogue 1949, that Big_Block shared with me.

http://threespeedhub.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Holdsworth-Aids-to-Happy-Cycling-1949-UK.pdf

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@Quiet_Mike thanks for posting that, it makes very interesting reading. Its great that people on this site are willing to share such information and knowledge.

According to Classic Lightweights on Weinmanns

Early ones from the early 1950’s have different engraved markings and
no dimples around the spoke holes.

I'm guessing mine are later as they don't appear to have dimples around the spoke holes. Weinmann rims seem to be the easiest to get hold of so I may look to replace the rear wheel completely by getting an age appropriate 115mm freewheel hub and another Weinmann rim, and simply replace the hub in the front wheel with something more appropriate age wise. I don't want to damage the rear wheel at all as it seems a nice one.

I'll rider her as she is for Eroica but hopefully I will find some parts whilst I'm there. Things seem to have dried up on ebay at the moment.

That's really great and perfectly rideable as it is. Nice Lytaloy headset and Hiduminium brakes. That catalogue that I have really casts doubt about what I thought a period Hobbs should be about though. If it were mine, I'd maybe find some Chater Lea or BSA cranks, a slightly older saddle and some black bartape but it's really lovely. I'd certainly love to have it in my collection so dibs if you ever decide to sell. Bet it rides really well too.

The Purchase Tax that applied to complete bikes sold on the domestic market meant that very few were sold that way. Coupled with shortages meant that it was a struggle.
Read the note that is on the top of page 2 of the Aids catalogue about the difficulties.
I have read that often components from previous projects were swapped onto the new frame.
This gives you some choices, and not having to ever be factory catalogue complete.
My 1946 Raceweight is at http://bicycles.net.au/forums/viewtopic.php?t=82002
I recall reading that lamp brackets were placed on the left to allow the rider to have a clear lit view of the edge of the road.

Frames made for export had a prefix of X in the serial number.

any markings on back of the chainring? Williams made these 'joggled' chainsets

Set of Alumite rims here, as per that Holdsworth catalogue. These are 26x1 1/4 and came off a late 40s RO Harrison.

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Thanks @7ven. Yes I was surprised how great it is to ride. New bar tape is on its way for Eroica and I'm hoping I can find a 40s derailleur whilst I'm there, or perhaps a saddle.

@Big_Block that explains why my lamp bracket it on the left then! I thought my bike must have been exported but it doesn't have the x prefix. It certainly makes sense. There were no proper markings on the crank unfortunately.

The docs that everyone is making available make great reading!

@Errol I'm pm you now :)

If these are for sale and for some reason something happens, I'd like second dibs on those! @Errol

A check on the Hobbs of Barbican Readers Bikes at Classic Lightweights shows the front light mount on the right hand side for the frames that had a light braze-on. It may have been a specific request of the purchaser.

Yes I'd noticed that. All this information helps to fill in some of the blanks and create a story for the bike.

Has anyone got any ideas for removing the old paint? It looks like my frame has been hand painted. A previous owner appears to have scraped off some paint looking for the head logo and BB manufacturer. I want to be able to remove the paint in layers in case any original finish remains. Does normal paint remover affect the original enamel finish?

I think so yes. I had a real job getting very thick hand painted enamel off my RRA frame, never really worked and ended up having to get it re-enamelled. I found I could get the top layer off with a LOT of gentle rubbing and turps etc, but was nigh on impossible to not remove the original under paint as well.

Nail polish remover/acetone works for me (sometimes).

I don't think the hand paintwork is enamel, I'm hoping its just gloss paint (fingers crossed). I'll give the acetone a try in a small area this next week and see what happens.

I was assuming that I would have to strip the frame and have it re-enamelled, but I'd like to find out if there is any original finish I can save. I'm really keen to save the history if I can.

Well I decided to start to remove some of the paint to see if there was any original finish underneath the later paintwork. I used paint stripper to soften the top coat, taking it off quite quickly so that hopefully it didn't damage the paint underneath too much. I did this multiple times to try and be gentle. A soft plastic kitchen scourer was used to try and take the paint off. I'm not sure I could recommend this approach though as I felt like I was definitely removing paint from lower layers.

Fortunately, any dreams I had of some original treasure that was hidden away under layers of later paint were dashed.

As you can see there is a colour underneath, but it is very thin and seems to be some sort of undercoat or previous overcoat. Certainly doesn't seem to be original as it feels quite soft, like the top coat. It does mean that I can get the frame repainted without any qualms I think.

I probably won't bother taking anymore paint off. I'll leave that to the painters when I get it re-enameled, which won't be until I have sourced all my other parts as I want to make the most of riding it.

I failed to upload the picture! Hopefully you can see it now.

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Well I took the bike out on a nice ride out last week but got a bit carried away with the OpenCycleMap map and ended coming back home via footpaths and rabbit runs. Definitely not a good idea taking a 70 year old bike off road!

The bike actually handled it very well but I have noticed since that both pedals now grind a bit so I took the opportunity to strip the pedals down and re-grease them. Whilst doing that I found that there were 9 ball bearings a side on one pedal and 11 on the other. So I have ordered some new ball bearings.

I have been trying to prove what make the pedals are. From pictures I think they look identical to Phillips Credalux ones (which have been made since the 1930s apparently). But it looks like others made very similar ones. Raleigh made some very similar ones in the 60s and 70s (called 501 quills?), but mine have subtly different shapes for some of the cutouts. Other than "Made in England" mine don't have any other markings.

Does anyone have any ideas or any way to positively identify Phillips Credalux?

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did you look at the Speedplay Pedal History Museum
The Phillips Credalux

Velobase
this Flickr photo
The more expensive one mentioned on the Flickr is the with the alloy barrel and stainless steel in place of the chromed steel is the Phillips 333. I have a set.

And there is the 1961 catalogue on the ThreeSpeedHub site
An advertisement in The Bicycle 17 November 1954 p 57 also has the words Made in England shown on the barrel)

The cap may be useful in identifying it from similar designs (such as seen on the Speedplay site), but your is not suitably placed in your photo.

In the 1952 Brown Bros catalogue there is the Phillips Credalux on p187
Note the number (101) then go to the spindles spares found on p190
Left hand coloumn has the 101 spindles. That lighter section on the spindle image has Phillips stamped in. (On my original copy of the catalogue it is clear!)

Thanks @Big_Block, really great information as always. I hadn't realised that so much information was available.

Yes I had looked on the Speedwell Pedal History page and whilst there were a lot of very similar ones, nothing was a complete match.

On Velobase the fourth picture from the left on the Credalux page is my set of pedals, which was why I thought mine might be Credalux. Mine are all steel.

Looking on your Brown Bros link my spindles are stepped not graduated, which I suspect is a less skilled and cheaper way of doing it.

Nothing anywhere on my pedals has Phillips stamped on it and I'm coming round to the idea that my pedals are later pattern parts made by someone else. I suspect the picture on Velobase that matches my pedals are not actually of Phillips pedals. There are so many very similar versions. These look very similar to mine but have slightly different cutouts and are described as 501 quills. Mine have 511 stamped on the barrels so perhaps they are a later or earlier version.

So it looks like Phillips Credalux have alloy barrels and a cutout on the tang that mine don't have. Identifying 70 year old parts is a nightmare! An updated picture of mine shown below.

Looks like I will have to update my pedals at some point then...

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