EU referendum, brexit and the aftermath

According to Michael Crick on Twitter only 12 of the 29 shadow cabinet aren't quitting. Looking at positives, Dennis Skinner will soon be defence secretary, or something.

These recent comments about The Labour Party seem to echo what I said yesterday: that it should wind itself up and make way for a new anti-tory opposition (e.g. Podemos).

Many of you here are, unlike me, young enough to have the energy to do this.

that's twice now i've heard JC 'didn't believe' in the campaign. how do you even begin to prove that? if anything, he's the only player who DID sound convincing insofar as he went to some lengths to explain how his opinion of the value of remaining in the EU changed when he considered the full horror of the reality we are facing now.

well he convinced me.

you're not wrong. well maybe about the 'young enough' bit.

dibs making tea and making sure there's plenty of post it notes.

it should wind itself up

I don't think we are at such a bleak, drastic stage yet. The EU is a good analogy: it's not worth destroying a big organisation, with all it's structures, historical ties etc. It would take years, decades even to build a new opposition party. I may be a fantasist, but Labour needs to find someone who can bring both wings of the party together. They will need to be a very skilful diplomat, as well as young, enigmatic, and without baggage.

John McDonnell just told Andrew Neill the Labour Shadow Cabinet member responsible for the Remain Campaign was ..... Hilary Benn!
Blairite logic: I did so badly, you need to resign.

"Don't blame us, blame those horrible tory-light blairites over there"

Pathetic.

I've just signed this, after initial scepticism a petition would work, I now think it can send a pretty strong message. Whoever posted it earlier, I think you were right.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

Dennis Skinner will soon be defence secretary, or something.>

Much as I love Dennis Skinner, I'm sorry to say he was in favour of Brexit.

Dennis has a great mind and is still a brilliant speaker. The son of a miner, he benefited from the grammar school education which was available in his youth. In his autobiography he makes the rather surprising (especially for a Labour politician) statement: 'Latin - all you have to do is learn to conjugate the verbs, and the rest is easy.'

Well, Tempora muntantur nos et mutamur in illis (times change, and we change with them). But when you're over eighty, Dennis, I can see this does get harder.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/william-oliver-healey-referendum-petition_uk_576f8b28e4b0232d331e1b39

Northern Ireland has a relatively new socialist party "people before profit" which did well. Greens also did well.

It's possible but you have to pick your battles. Well off conservative areas won't vote for you anyway.

Funding is also a massive issue some mates of mine tried to start a party. You need researchers, rooms etc. But it can be done.

Joking aside many right wing parties in Europe atm are exactly like the Nazis atm: Locals get socialism and furrigns a beating.

"Save the nhs" but "it's all immigrations fault" hmmm... hi brexit!

Hopefully any Godwin's re UK politics can remain in jest.

The feeling in industrial north is so disillusioned with the labour party they would have done the opposite of what JC and party line was in protests. So may be we would have stayed in.
I know think that the ideal solution would Norway type free trade but the EU would demand free movement this could be allowed but to appease the anti immigration voter they should not able to apply for benefits or council house. That gives no reason to hate them. Let them come here and work. Health care and educatiin, as a civilised nation should be provided free at the point of time.

The un-defined ones that don't exist yet and the lack of which is euphemistically suggested as the reason labour is doing badly. Normally in the context of immigration.
Edit: see above^

Germany has set rules on benefits on eu immigrants you need to work a certain time to get them, and only get a year of benefits.

So some measures are possible. But that leaves aside that eu immigrants claim fewer benefits and have more employment.

Maybe the issue is jobs perceived / actually going to immigrants & wage lowering. Not "they don't work".

I should know this, but don't - we have a minimum wage, therefore it should be impossible to pay a migrant/immigrant less than someone from the UK, so why are (say) Polish workers given jobs over English workers? Or is that purely perception, or are the Polish etc generally (in the rural North) doing jobs that Englishers don't apply for?

' Don't blame us, blame those election-losing tory-light blairites over there'
is closer to the evidence.

You are assuming working for minimum wage is viable

Ish, if the English don't view it as viable but the Polish do, then that explains that - and the solution would be to raise the minimum wage, rather than clamping down on immigration.

You're not answering the question, there's a career in politics waiting for you.

"more holes than connect 4" 😂

Class.

But cash in hand jobs working on houses etc. arent seen in that.

Neither are construction semi black payments or temp contracts.

There's a few things at work here. One is that those from eastern Europe who come looking for work will take literally any job, seasonal work picking fruit and veg is a good example; minimum wage, 5am starts, hard physical labour. The English simply don't want these jobs.

Second, and just from personal experience working in the construction industry, Polish carpenters have an excellent work ethic, are skillfull, fast, and take their work very seriously. On sites I have worked on they make the English chippies look like piss takers at times.

And yes, perception plays a large part as well.

That's a different issue though, one of illegal working - it's strongly connected of course, but the way you'd resolve that is distinct, and would be sanctions against the employer.

EDIT I'm trying to reply to JWestland with this post, but this forum's reply function is bollocks.

Has anyone stopped to consider that the people who aren't voting Labour any more are not biologically disposed to be Labour?

What is more, this idea that Corbyn was supposed to turn around a couple of decades of disenfranchisement by the neoliberal Labour party, and win over voters who most recently voted for parties on the right, baffles. Why was it his duty to make up for UKIP and Tory votes? Why wasn't it up to the Conservatives to get their own party on board, or try to win over voters for Ukip?

Labour, as a whole, did better than the Tories in getting the party to back the official position. Essentially equaled the SNP!

It was not Labour that lost this fucking referendum - it was the right.

Tory 42-58
Lab 63-37
Lib Dem 70-30
Ukip 4-96
Green 75-25
SNP 64-36

If there's price parity then the people buying the stuff will just buy it from the people who are more motivated and can deliver - the forrins.